12"

"The Keeper of the Sound"

A 2007 Interview of Robert Paiste by Fritz Steger
"An obituary for Robert Paiste"

The origins of the Paiste company lie in Estonia. The word Paiste means " shine ", a symbol that continues today in various logos of the cymbal series.
The Estonian born musician and composer Michail Toomas Paiste founded a publishing house and a music shop in Saint Petersburg in 1901, where musical instruments were also manufactured and repaired.
The business flourished until the upheaval in Russia in 1916, when the October Revolution forced him to return to Estonia. In Tallinn, he and his son Mikhail M. Paiste began to design and manufacture cymbals for concert and marching bands.
They made cymbals according to the Turkish design, which they preferred to the Chinese versions. During this time, he also developed the first gongs.
The resulting instruments received awards and recognition and he began to export them to Europe, USA and overseas. Due to World War II, Mikhail M. Paiste was forced to leave Estonia in 1940 and rebuild the family business in German occupied Poland.
The company struggled with the shortage of raw materials caused by the war and the difficulty of maintaining international contacts. Towards the end of the war, Paiste and his family left Poland as refugees.
He then rebuilt his business in Brunsbüttel (Schleswig Holstein), Germany. The third generation, his sons Robert and Toomas, then led the company to the top of the world in cymbal making.
While Toomas (b 1939 - d 2003) drove sales and was very present in public, Robert (b 1932 - d 2016) was the mastermind behind many of the developments and patents that gave Paiste its outstanding reputation.
He was considered an introvert and lived a very reclusive life. In 2007, I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with Robert Paiste that lasted several hours.
I met a good humored friendly senior citizen at the Paiste headquarters in Sursee, Switzerland. He spoke slowly and deliberately, in a sonorous, rasping voice with long pauses, constantly clarifying his own words: (Fritz Steger 2007.)

Mr. Paiste, you were born in 1932. Can you remember when you first became aware of the cymbal making craft?
RP: From the beginning, it was always there. I first noticed the rhythmic sound of hammering. It started in Estonia, when I was eight. Then we came to Poland, which was German occupied and it was already war at that time.
In Estonia the school began as late as 8 years. Before that you went to a kindergarten. There one already learned the first letters and numbers, but it was rather a kind of preschool.
Because of the lack (of schooling) I spoke only Estonian. At home we spoke mainly Russian, my father was born in St. Petersburg and later came to Estonia with his father. The first class with 6-year-olds was then not so much fun.
I didn't know German well either and was torn out of my childhood. The first thing I learned in Germany was to shout "Heil Hitler". At that time, one was not allowed to speak Estonian or Russian, but those were my native languages.
That was forbidden by my parents because it was dangerous: If I wanted to say something spontaneously, they would say: "shhhhh, you're not allowed to, speak in German!" That somehow became ingrained in me, also as a kind of language inhibition that accompanied me my whole life.
Then at school I soon got caught up. At that time Dad only made brass cymbals, these materials were classified as important for the war effort, from time to time he was allocated some material, of course, it was difficult to plan anything. Then came the escape from Krakow Poland, that was at the same time as the Wilhelm-Gustloff* was sunk, then we came to northern Germany (Jan 1945).
(*)MV Wilhelm Gustloff was a German military transport ship which was sunk on 30 January 1945 by Soviet submarine S-13 in the Baltic Sea while evacuating German civilian refugees from East Prussia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland and Estonia and military personnel from Gotenhafen as the Russian Red Army advanced.
There was nothing there at first, the capitulation (German surrender) came pretty soon, and then there was still nothing. You couldn't buy anything anyway, then in 1948 came the currency reform: everybody got 150.00 marks.
That was the initial business capital from which Dad then bought the first brass metal and made the first cymbals. Those were Stambul and Zilko, then Dad became ill and was in the hospital for a long time, the doctors gave him little chance.
That's when I dropped out of school and learned the trade, I was 17 then. From then on, I've been making cymbals.

Paiste was the first manufacturer to assign assign cymbals to to specific specific purposes. How did it come about?

R.P.: Before the Before the war there wasn't much war there wasn't much going ongoing on with cymbals with cymbals -- there was the there was the orchestral music orchestral music but but the musicians didn't the musicians didn't really really perceive the cymbals . That really That really started after the war, with jazz and other styles of music. I remember started after the war, with jazz and other styles of music. I remember that the that the Turkish Turkish cymbals were sold by weight. cymbals were sold by weight. So,So, 10 kilos of cymbals cost a certain amount. 10 kilos of cymbals cost a certain amount. The The cymbals were then cymbals were then, , as they as they came, sometimes came, sometimes thick, thick, sometimes thin, sometimes sometimes thin, sometimes light light, , andand sometimes heavy. We then found that orchestra people tended to prefer longer sometimes heavy. We then found that orchestra people tended to prefer longer decaying cymbals decaying cymbals, , which we called "gong cymbals", while dance orchestraswhich we called "gong cymbals", while dance orchestras, , such as such as for the Charleston for the Charleston, wanted , wanted sibilant sibilant sounds. sounds. That's how the "sizzle cymbals" came That's how the "sizzle cymbals" came about. Then the Charleston cymbals about. Then the Charleston cymbals -- at that time the at that time the HiHi--HatHats were still called that. s were still called that. That was the beginning. That was the beginning. Later came other styles through jazz and other names Later came other styles through jazz and other names like like medium, , heavy, heavy, thin, and, and paper thin.paper thin. Did Did you do you do all this all this hammering by hand?hammering by hand? R.P.: R.P.: Everything, including the Everything, including the bell bell was hammered out.was hammered out. At At what point did you start using what point did you start using hydraulic hammershydraulic hammers?? R.P.: R.P.: I I reckon reckon in in 1952 we got the first hammer. 1952 we got the first hammer. DadDad had organized that. He wanted had organized that. He wanted that. When I was learning to do cymbals, Dad said, "Look how I do it and do it the that. When I was learning to do cymbals, Dad said, "Look how I do it and do it the same way." Yeahsame way." Yeah, , that's good, but it can be even better, he was the guide. And that's that's good, but it can be even better, he was the guide. And that's the way it is with the way it is with craftsmanshipcraftsmanship. . CraftsmanshipCraftsmanship is neveris never definitively 100 percent. No definitively 100 percent. No matter how precise you want to hammer, no matter how exact you want to makematter how precise you want to hammer, no matter how exact you want to make itit, , some kind of deviation always creeps in. And when the mistakes add up, it's just too some kind of deviation always creeps in. And when the mistakes add up, it's just too much. much. CraftsmanshipCraftsmanship is never final. He then set up the hammeris never final. He then set up the hammer and told and told us us to work to work with it. But my colleagues with it. But my colleagues saidsaid: ": "I won't touch that I won't touch that machinemachine.." " But But I was interested, so I I was interested, so I started to try. started to try. AAt the beginning it didn't really workt the beginning it didn't really work, but , but then I slowly got into it. Then then I slowly got into it. Then the others saw that I was much faster with the cymbalthe others saw that I was much faster with the cymbal and it was hammered even and it was hammered even cleaner. And that's how it grew. That was good about cleaner. And that's how it grew. That was good about my fathermy father, he , he gave you the gave you the input, the hint. He didn't push, but left it up to you. input, the hint. He didn't push, but left it up to you. You then went to Switzerland in 1957. How did that happen? You then went to Switzerland in 1957. How did that happen? R.P.: R.P.: That was a very important step for us. We had That was a very important step for us. We had been “settled” been “settled” to Germany. We to Germany. We were fleeing from communism and we were afraid that communism would advance were fleeing from communism and we were afraid that communism would advance further. We wanted to go to the USA at that time. But they were working with quotas further. We wanted to go to the USA at that time. But they were working with quotas at that time and theat that time and the quota for Estonians was fulfilled. quota for Estonians was fulfilled. So,So, we got stuck in Germany for we got stuck in Germany for the time being, and we quickly the time being, and we quickly had had to to mamakke something e something byby ourselves in the postourselves in the post--war war period. But Germany was not our choice. period. But Germany was not our choice. We then thought of We then thought of Sweden Sweden or Switzerlandor Switzerland -- at that point at that point they were considered they were considered safe safe countriescountries. . From what I knewFrom what I knew, , Switzerland Switzerland was democratic, neutral, and centrally located in Europe. was democratic, neutral, and centrally located in Europe. So,So, in 1957 I went to in 1957 I went to Switzerland alone Switzerland alone -- my brother was 7 years younger and still at school my brother was 7 years younger and still at school -- and and started started to build cto build cymbals in a single room. What our ymbals in a single room. What our family learned family learned during this during this time was to time was to build build something something new new from from nothing.nothing. Here in Switzerland, you then came out with a new series, the Super Formula 602. How did that come about? R.P.: We had brass and nickel silver as materials in Germany. Both metals did not achieve such a tone or sound like 20-percent bronze. We were aware of that, but there was no way to get other material at the time. Since we had to work with a poorer material compared to bronze, we inevitably developed skills and ways to get the best sound possible - With bronze this would not have been necessary. In Switzerland we went to various metal works, but they also said that they could not produce such bronze. One metalworker then said they would try. They then made a sample about 6mm thick, but then they were done - They were getting nowhere. I took it to smaller rolling mills but got nowhere with them either. At the very end I found out that there was a smaller rolling mill on the other side of the lake (Sursee). I went there, but they too said they couldn't roll 20-percent bronze. This guy there then looked at me like this and said, "We have a small rolling mill, it's empty. You can try it there yourself". He gave me another guy to help and little by little I got it so thin you could make a cymbal out of it. We then made some cymbals and went back to the first metal mill and showed them. The master was an older man and he couldn't believe it at first, but the rolled piece was there. He then said, "If you can do it, we can do it”. That's how Formula started. We then gained experience with the material and after a short time it was a "Super" cymbal. Hence the name Super, which we later dropped. In 1966 you developed the flat ride cymbal. How did that come about? R.P.: The Flat Ride is the only one, the first, and the last cymbal that more or less came out of a gag. That was with Joe Morello, he was here once. At the time I guess it was new in the watch industry, or new to him. There were super-flat watches at the time and he was fascinated with his super-flat watch. Somehow, he said, why don't you make a cymbal like that? And I wondered, what does a cymbal without a bell sound like? Well, we were making gongs, but I didn't relate to that. Then we built prototypes, which surprised us very much with the sound. Besides the Formula 602, the 2002 series was another milestone that made Paiste a leading cymbal manufacturer. R.P.: R.P.: In the early days of In the early days of Formula,Formula, we often had the problem that dealers didn't want we often had the problem that dealers didn't want to buy our to buy our cymbalscymbals. . They said They said they were they were good, but they had the wrong name good, but they had the wrong name on on themthem. That led me . That led me to deal to deal directly with the drummers. I learned what they were directly with the drummers. I learned what they were looking for and what was important to them. We held gatherings looking for and what was important to them. We held gatherings called called ““drummer drummer meetingsmeetings”” where where we had we had our cymbals our cymbals playedplayed. There w. There were tryere try--outoutss, discussion, discussion,, questions, questions, criticism, and that's how we learned criticism, and that's how we learned what the drummers liked and didn't what the drummers liked and didn't like. like. That's how the Drummer Service was born, which still exists today. Because we That's how the Drummer Service was born, which still exists today. Because we make the sound for the drummer. Therefore, it's hismake the sound for the drummer. Therefore, it's his/her/her sound, not our sousound, not our sound, and nd, and not my not my sound. My great endeavor sound. My great endeavor was to was to adapt adapt the sound of the cymbals to the the sound of the cymbals to the changing styles of music. changing styles of music. In the 60In the 60ss there were there were new changes in music styles new changes in music styles and the and the drummers said they had problems drummers said they had problems to to compete compete with the cymbals against the with the cymbals against the big big volume on stage. volume on stage. So,So, I looked for a material to do I looked for a material to do just just that and found the that and found the ““eighteight”” bronze (B8). First bronze (B8). First we built the we built the Stambul 65 out Stambul 65 out of this materialof this material, , which would have which would have all all the parameters of the Stambul series. Then we built ththe parameters of the Stambul series. Then we built the e Giant Beat series. Giant Beat series. At some At some point we combined the Stambul 65 and Giant Beat and drew the experiences point we combined the Stambul 65 and Giant Beat and drew the experiences together and so gradually the 2002 was born.together and so gradually the 2002 was born. Do Do youyou have have any any recollection of recollection of how the name how the name 20022002 came about? came about? R.P.: R.P.: That was supposed to be That was supposed to be forwardforward--looking. The series was ready in 1970/71 and looking. The series was ready in 1970/71 and we had the conviction that we had put allwe had the conviction that we had put all -- and and our latestour latest -- experience experience in itin it. 2002 . 2002 looked good visually and was also looked good visually and was also easy easy to remember.to remember. At the time, did you expect the series to exist beyond 2002? At the time, did you expect the series to exist beyond 2002? R.P.: R.P.: NoNo, none of us expected that. , none of us expected that. We thought towards the middle of the 80We thought towards the middle of the 80ss that that the the 2002 had to change further 2002 had to change further and then developed the 3000 series. We expected that and then developed the 3000 series. We expected that this further development would displace the 2002 series. But the market decided this further development would displace the 2002 series. But the market decided otherwise. otherwise. ...because all of a ...because all of a sudden,sudden, the sales figures for 2002 shot up?the sales figures for 2002 shot up? R.P.: R.P.: Correct. However, the Correct. However, the knowledge gained knowledge gained at at that time flowed into the B15that time flowed into the B15 alloy alloy a a few years later, which again combined the knowledge of all series. We were very few years later, which again combined the knowledge of all series. We were very proud of it and therefore it should only bear our name. Later it was called Signature proud of it and therefore it should only bear our name. Later it was called Signature or Line by the drummers.or Line by the drummers. With Signature With Signature -- in the in the sense of the signature of a wellsense of the signature of a well--known artistknown artist -- two of two of your your competitors in the 80competitors in the 80ss claim to have been claim to have been the the first first to to implement this ideaimplement this idea. However, . However, youyou were the first to do so in were the first to do so in 1967 1967 with the Joe Morello Signature Ride.with the Joe Morello Signature Ride. R.P.: R.P.: That may well be. But I couldn't care less. Marketing has never interested That may well be. But I couldn't care less. Marketing has never interested meme -- I I was always just about the sound!was always just about the sound! Robert Paiste passed away Robert Paiste passed away at the age of 84 on at the age of 84 on November 15, 2016. R.I.P.November 15, 2016. R.I.P. This part of the interview was not previously published! Bill Ludwig Jr. writes in his autobiography that during his time as an importer of Paiste cymbals, Ludwig had extreme quality problems with the Formula 602. He states that pieces were missing from the broken cymbals, as if a large animal had bitten them off. These statements severely damaged your reputation in the 70s and 80s, for a long time - especially in the States. What do you say about it today? R.P.: We first sold the Stambul series of nickel silver to Ludwig. These were the exact same cymbals that were sold in Europe. Then much later they wanted the Formula 602 as well. But they said they weren't thin enough for the American market. They wanted them even thinner. Did you make them thinner then? R.P.: You're asking me something? I think we made them a little thinner then. Ludwig talks about needing a dedicated basement room to house all the cracked cymbals. When you think about how many cymbals you can stack on top of each other, that seems a bit fantastic. That would have to be millions of broken cymbals! R.P.: This is his story. When three adults have participated in something in the past, there are three different stories that come out after just one year. Our cymbals broke no more and no less in America than everywhere else - American dealers have told us that. Of course, we exchanged the broken cymbals. But on the other hand, this fact was very much exploited by the competition to damage and break us. It is very easy to talk something like this up and insanely hard to get away from it again. Ludwig continues: After a legal dispute with Paiste, they agreed on a 10% discount on future orders as compensation for the broken cymbals. The ink was not yet dry when Paiste raised the prices by 10%, whereupon he ended the business relationship forever. R.P.: Which is surprising and something I never understood in and of itself. A lot of the cymbals that broke in America actually had those big missing pieces there that Ludwig also described. And I still don't understand to this day why that was the case. I guess in retrospect, Ludwig had done quite a bit with street corps, with his drums. And they play without respect - brutally. And maybe with their huge sticks - and they play loud in the first place. But in and of itself it doesn't matter. We never had any legal conflicts with Ludwig. That's simply not true what he writes there. The thing with the so-called discounts, that's not true either. For a certain phase we had given them discounts for advertising and promotion. When prices were raised, everyone raised their prices because the material became expensive. What is true is that he made a cut without warning. That must have hit you hard economically, you must have had to invest a lot of new money at that time? R.P.: We started very small and limited and then built more and more. Ludwig then ordered more and more of the nickel silver cymbals. We were expanding anyway. Formula didn't start going to America until we were somewhat established in the European market and had built up an image. And it is true, Ludwig had a considerable share of our total volume and certainly 60% of all sales to America. From the simple and logical realization that it was too risky to concentrate on only one market, we set out to achieve a balance with expansion mainly in the European market. On the other hand, it was of course tempting to give in to the constant demand from America, as we could use the money for new investments. When an order like that falls away, you notice it of course. That was a hard time, about one and a half to two years. We bridged one year in order to keep the team. It takes a long time for someone to build cymbals and we had the agreement of our people that we had to do other things. Then we built switch cabinets for the signage factory, we built snow chains for somebody, we overhauled carburetors for the Swiss military. Then it picked up again, then it was good again. We could only get through an exercise like that because our family history taught us to deal with hopeless situations. Dad did that and I took over from my father, I was there. These are then the advantages of it in later life. At the time, of course, such times are not so funny, times of war, times of escape. In one respect I am very grateful to the Ludwig family. My father already had business contacts with Ludwig Senior in Estonia. In the post-war period, the Ludwigs sent us care packages, which at that time could not be paid for with money. When did you start pressing cymbals? R.P.: First we started to press the bell on the press bench. That was the first relief, because to hammer the bell was a big deal. Later we had a press for it, which was even more precise. The cymbals of the other manufacturers in Germany were, I think, all pressed. I don't know who started that. But I remember one thing: At some point my father told me that someone had called him and said he had a machine for making cymbals and whether my father had the money to buy it. My father said crossly: "A machine for making cymbals, you can forget that". The other one then explained how it works. To which my father said, "We don't make pots and pans, we make cymbals." The one who called was (Roland) Meinl. That must have been in the early 50s. That was typical Dad, "A machine to make cymbals, you can forget it." He was a craftsman through and through. How did you come up with the idea of the Sound Edge Hi-Hat? R.P.: Definitely through the "airlock", after conversations at our drummer meetings where I realized that airlock was a problem for many drummers. At that time your brother Toomas was more present in public as "Mr. Paiste", although you yourself were in charge of the product development. How did you feel about that? R.P.: The two of us enjoyed a very unique, super, complementary relationship. You can't plan something like that. I am by nature more introverted, more intuitive, focused on the craft, on the sound, on the internal, the structure, the organizing. And Toomas was extroverted, eccentric - traveling, talking, negotiating, selling, promoting. And so, we complemented each other. It is probably rare to find such an ideal combination of brothers. There were two energies working on the same goal from two different sides.