Paiste Brass-Tones 18" Ride - Revision history

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@@ Line 143: / Line 143: @@
 </gallery>
-===1972? The END:===
+===1972/73? The END:===
 To understand the ending, we need to go back to February 9th. 1964 (the Beatles and the Ed Sullivan show): This seminal moment forever changed the music industry in the U.S, overnight, thousands and thousands of kids wanted to play the drums and begged thier parents for a Ludwig drumset! This massive demand meant Ludwig's factory was working multiple shifts producing drumsets, along with these sets, many were sold with Paiste cymbals.
 It is speculated that young, inexperienced (with poor technique), hard hitting drummers started breaking a lot of these cymbals, especially the 602's which were designed as a jazz cymbal, to make matters worse, they were made thinner for the American market, a recipe for disaster!<br>

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 ===Introduction:===
-Ludwig officially listed Paiste cymbals under the Ludwig name in their catalogs starting in 1957 (Previously, Ludwig began importing Paiste Gongs to the U.S. around 1953).<br>
+Ludwig officially listed Paiste cymbals under the Ludwig name in their catalogs starting in 1957 (Previously, Ludwig began importing Paiste Gongs into the U.S. around 1953).<br>
 However, there are several accounts that the relationship started much earlier than that: there is proof that William Ludwig Sr. had a relationship with Michail Paiste before WWII. Robert Paiste recalls in an interview that his father "already had business contacts with Ludwig Sr. while we were in Estonia" (1930’s).
 Also, In the early post-war period (1945/46?) Robert also states: “the Ludwig family sent care packages which at that time could not be paid for with money”.<br>
@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 ===1964, Ludwig and the Formula 602:===
-In late '63 to early ‘64 during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill was interested but felt that they were "too heavy for the American market" (like the 3-star’s were). Bill Jr. ordered seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the '64 Chicago music convention that summer. When Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals starting from their first catalog in 1912!). The Paiste brothers were at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment.<br>
+In late '63 to early ‘64 during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill Jr. ordered seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the '64 Chicago music convention that summer. When Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals starting from their first catalog in 1912)! The Paiste brothers were also at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment. It looks like the first 602s were sold in the U.S. by Ludwig started about a year later in mid 1965.<br>
 Key in getting the partnership off the ground was Robert Yeager, co-owner of the [https://prodrumshop.com/about-us/ Pro drum shop in Hollywood California]. The Professional Drum Shop was founded in 1959 by Bob and Chuck Molinari, they were one of Ludwig's largest retailers, Bob also acted as technical adviser or “cymbal expert” to Ludwig while working with Paiste. Both Bob and Bill Jr. felt the Paiste cymbals were too heavy, they took a trip to Paiste to "reset the standards of thickness" throughout the 602 line. Bob also worked with Pierre Favré and hand picked 602's for both Ludwig and his own shop.<br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 53: / Line 52: @@
 ===1965, The Ludwig Standard:===
-Around 1965, the Ludwig Standard series were added to the Ludwig catalog, these can be classified as an upscale entry-level line (again, they were rebranded Stambuls). They were basically the original "3-star" cymbal with mid 60's updates that were applied to the Stambuls, in turn, they were also applied to the Standard (smaller bell and different lathing). Very late in their production run the Standards were switched to B8, probably in '71 judging from the lack of serial numbered examples (the author owns one). We believe that Paiste stopped making cymbals for Ludwig around '71 or '72 after Ludwig cancelled thier contract without notice. The Ludwig Standards last appearance comes in the 1975 Ludwig catalog in limited size options, these are most assuredly leftover stock. We have examples of pre serial NS12 Ludwig Standards that were restamped with post '71 ink stamping as Stambuls and sold off after the deal with Ludwig collapsed!<br>
+Around 1965, the Ludwig Standard series were added to the Ludwig catalog, these can be classified as an upscale entry-level line (again, they were rebranded Stambuls). They were basically the original "3-star" cymbal with the same mid 60's updates that were applied to the Stambuls, in turn, they were also applied to the Standard (smaller bell and different lathing). Very late in their production run the Standards were switched to B8, probably in '71 judging from the ink stamps and lack of serial numbers (the author owns one). We believe that Paiste stopped making cymbals for Ludwig around '72 after Ludwig cancelled thier contract without notice. The Ludwig Standards last appearance comes in the 1975 Ludwig catalog in limited size options, these are most assuredly leftover stock. We have examples of pre serial NS12 Ludwig Standards that were restamped with post '71 ink stamping as Stambuls and sold off after the deal with Ludwig collapsed!<br>
 <gallery>
 File:Ludwig standard.jpg|

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 <gallery>
 File:Logo B.jpg|Early 3-star emboss
-File:Namm early 60s paite gong.jpg|Bill Sr. & Bill Jr. stand in front of a Paiste gong at the Chicago NAMM show
+File:Namm early 60s paite gong.jpg|Bill Sr. & Bill Jr. stand in front of a Paiste gong at a late 50's or early 60's Chicago NAMM show
 File:1954 ad.jpg|1954 gong advert
 File:1955 Ludwig catalog.jpg|1955 catalog with 1st. listing of Paiste gongs
@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 ===1964, Ludwig and the Formula 602:===
-In late '63 to early ‘64 during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill was interested but felt that they were "too heavy for the American market" (like the 3-star’s were). Bill Jr. ordered seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the '64 Chicago music convention that summer. When Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals from their first catalog in 1912!). The Paiste brothers were at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment.<br>
+In late '63 to early ‘64 during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill was interested but felt that they were "too heavy for the American market" (like the 3-star’s were). Bill Jr. ordered seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the '64 Chicago music convention that summer. When Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals starting from their first catalog in 1912!). The Paiste brothers were at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment.<br>
 The decision for Ludwig to distribute 602's came during Chicago music convention, this is when they laid the groundwork and probably negotiated the contracts with Paiste, it seems the first 602s sold in the U.S. by Ludwig started about a year later in mid 1965.<br>
 Key in getting the partnership off the ground was Robert Yeager, co-owner of the [https://prodrumshop.com/about-us/ Pro drum shop in Hollywood California]. The Professional Drum Shop was founded in 1959 by Bob and Chuck Molinari, they were one of Ludwig's largest retailers, Bob also acted as technical adviser or “cymbal expert” to Ludwig while working with Paiste. Both Bob and Bill Jr. felt the Paiste cymbals were too heavy, they took a trip to Paiste to "reset the standards of thickness" throughout the 602 line. Bob also worked with Pierre Favré and hand picked 602's for both Ludwig and his own shop.<br>

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 ===Introduction:===
 Ludwig officially listed Paiste cymbals under the Ludwig name in their catalogs starting in 1957 (Previously, Ludwig began importing Paiste Gongs to the U.S. around 1953).<br>
-However, there are several accounts that the relationship started much earlier than that: there is proof that William Ludwig Sr. had a relationship with Michail Paiste before WWII. Robert Paiste recalls in an interview that his father already had business contacts with Ludwig Sr. while we were in Estonia (1930’s).
+However, there are several accounts that the relationship started much earlier than that: there is proof that William Ludwig Sr. had a relationship with Michail Paiste before WWII. Robert Paiste recalls in an interview that his father "already had business contacts with Ludwig Sr. while we were in Estonia" (1930’s).
 Also, In the early post-war period (1945/46?) Robert also states: “the Ludwig family sent care packages which at that time could not be paid for with money”.<br>

@@ Line 164: / Line 164: @@
 File:1973 ludwig catalog 1.jpg|1973 catalog, last listing of the full line of Paistes
 File:1975 ludwig catalog.jpg|1975 catalog, Zildjian is back and only leftovers offered
-File:PXL 20220330 011518661.jpg|NS12 Ludwig Standard with Stambul full ink labeling
+File:PXL 20220330 011518661.jpg|Ludwig Standard with Stambul full ink labeling
 </gallery>

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 ===1964 Pierre Favre joins Paiste:===
-At the Paiste drummer meeting in Frankfurt and 1964. Pierre met the Paiste brothers who invited him to visit their factory in Nottwil. Since Pierre has always been interested in cymbals, he was most enthusiastic about accepting their invitation during the visit.
+At the 1964 Paiste drummer meeting in Frankfurt, Pierre met the Paiste brothers who invited him to visit their factory in Nottwil. Since Pierre has always been interested in cymbals, he was most enthusiastic about accepting their invitation. The Paiste brothers were so impressed with his keen interest and attentive attitude, they offered him a position on their staff to take care of the most important task: cymbal development, quality control and to establish an education/drummer service dept.<br>
 ===1964, Ludwig and the Formula 602:===
-Late 1963 to early ‘64, during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill agreed but felt that they were "too heavy for the American market" like the 3-star’s were. Bill Jr. ordered  seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the 1964 Chicago music convention that summer, when Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals starting from their first catalog in 1912!). The Paiste brothers were at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment.<br>
+In late '63 to early ‘64 during one of Bill Ludwig Jr’s visits to London, [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Identify_Your_Paistes#Arbiter Ivor Arbiter] (English distributor for Paiste since 1962) suggested he try the “first line” Paiste cymbals: the formula 602. Bill was interested but felt that they were "too heavy for the American market" (like the 3-star’s were). Bill Jr. ordered seventy five 602’s mostly to show at the '64 Chicago music convention that summer. When Avedis Zildjian saw the display, he flew into a rage and immediately cut off Ludwig from distributing his cymbals (Ludwig had sold mainly Zildjian cymbals from their first catalog in 1912!). The Paiste brothers were at the music convention and assured Bill Jr. that they would stand by him. They worked out a contract, giving Ludwig exclusive distribution for all of North America and Mexico and in return Ludwig ordered 2,000 Formula 602 cymbals per month (24,000 per year!). When the brothers received the initial order, they brought it to their bank in Switzerland and secured a credit line to finance a larger expansion of the factory and modernize a lot of their equipment.<br>
-The decision for Ludwig to distribute 602's came in the Summer of 1964, this is when they laid the groundwork, it seems the first 602s sold in the U.S. by Ludwig started in mid 1965.<br>
+The decision for Ludwig to distribute 602's came during Chicago music convention, this is when they laid the groundwork and probably negotiated the contracts with Paiste, it seems the first 602s sold in the U.S. by Ludwig started about a year later in mid 1965.<br>
-Key in getting the partnership off the ground was Robert Yeager, co-owner of the [https://prodrumshop.com/about-us/ Pro drum shop in Hollywood California]. The Professional Drum Shop was founded in 1959 by Bob and Chuck Molinari, they were one of Ludwig's largest retailers, he also acted as technical adviser or “cymbal expert” to Ludwig while working with Paiste. Both Bob and Bill Jr. felt the Paiste cymbals were too heavy, they took a trip to Paiste to "reset the standards of thickness" throughout the 602 line. Bob also worked with Pierre Favré and hand picked 602's for both Ludwig and his own shop.<br>
+Key in getting the partnership off the ground was Robert Yeager, co-owner of the [https://prodrumshop.com/about-us/ Pro drum shop in Hollywood California]. The Professional Drum Shop was founded in 1959 by Bob and Chuck Molinari, they were one of Ludwig's largest retailers, Bob also acted as technical adviser or “cymbal expert” to Ludwig while working with Paiste. Both Bob and Bill Jr. felt the Paiste cymbals were too heavy, they took a trip to Paiste to "reset the standards of thickness" throughout the 602 line. Bob also worked with Pierre Favré and hand picked 602's for both Ludwig and his own shop.<br>
 <gallery>
 File:1965 paiste ludwig drummer mag 1.jpg|602's 1st, appearance in the fall of '65 Ludwig drummer magazine

@@ Line 159: / Line 159: @@
 Judging from the catalogs, Ludwig still had a full selection and offered of all the current cymbal lines in the '73 catalog, considering this catalog would have been created, compiled and printed in 1972, we believe the break happened during that year. There is secondary proof in that there a VERY few examples of B8 Ludwig cymbals (Standards and Stanoples), they would've switched to B8 in 1971, also we have not seen a B8 Ludwig cymbal with a serial number, that could reinforce the possibility they stopped production sometime in '72.<br>
-Robert Paiste said that Ludwig cancelled thier contract without notice, this created some hardship in the company from losing such a large customer, Robert talks about in in a [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/The_Keeper_of_the_Sound 2006 interview:] <i>"that was a hard time, about one and a half to two years, we bridged one year in order to keep the team. It takes a long time for someone to learn how to make cymbals, we had the agreement with our people that we had to do other things: we built switch cabinets for the signage factory, we built snow chains and we overhauled carburetors for the Swiss military. Then it picked up again, then it was good again."</i><br>
+Robert Paiste said that Ludwig cancelled thier contract without notice, this created some hardship in the company from losing such a large customer, Robert talks about it in a [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/The_Keeper_of_the_Sound 2006 interview:] <i>"that was a hard time, about one and a half to two years, we bridged one year in order to keep the team. It takes a long time for someone to learn how to make cymbals, we had the agreement with our people that we had to do other things: we built switch cabinets for the signage factory, we built snow chains and we overhauled carburetors for the Swiss military. Then it picked up again, then it was good again."</i><br>
 The Ludwig Standards last appearance comes in the 1975 Ludwig catalog in limited size options as these cymbals are most assuredly leftover stock. We have examples of pre serial NS12 Ludwig Standards that were restamped with post '71 ink as Stambuls, this means Paiste still had substantial stock in thier vault that never sold or shipped to Ludwig, they were forced to relabel and sell off after the deal with Ludwig collapsed.

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 Also, In the early post-war period (1945/46?) Robert also states: “the Ludwig family sent care packages which at that time could not be paid for with money”.<br>
-===1956 the beginning:===
+===1956, The beginning:===
 In or around 1956, Bill Ludwig Sr. was visiting his childhood home in Nenderoth Germany, afterward he attended the Frankfurt music fair where met with Michail Paiste, he purchased some samples (Ns12 Stambuls) and brought them back to the U.S, Bill Ludwig Jr. found them too thick for the US market, but the price was extremely attractive so he ordered more of them.<br>
 These cymbals were stamped with the Ludwig name [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_Ludwig <b>(the Ludwig “3-star”)</b>] creating exclusivity among American drum companies, they planned to sell them with their drum outfits. Ludwig ordered 20,000 cymbals per year for several years ('57 to '64) and received nothing but a good comments about them.<br>
@@ Line 41: / Line 41: @@
 </gallery>
-===1965 Ludwig & co. visits Paiste:===
+===1965, Ludwig & co. visits Paiste:===
 An official visit to the factory occurred in late February or early March of '65 (this was most likely not the 1st. time). If you notice early in the "a visit to Switzerland" story it references the Frankfurt Music Fair which took place at the end of Feb. We believe this was to setup the deal to distribute Formula 602's by Ludwig in north America (along with setting the "standards of thickness"), it is also believed they worked on the "new" Ludwig Standard cymbals (setting the weights for each type of cymbal as well).<br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 </gallery>
-===1965 the Ludwig Standard:===
+===1965, The Ludwig Standard:===
 Around 1965, the Ludwig Standard series were added to the Ludwig catalog, these can be classified as an upscale entry-level line (again, they were rebranded Stambuls). They were basically the original "3-star" cymbal with mid 60's updates that were applied to the Stambuls, in turn, they were also applied to the Standard (smaller bell and different lathing). Very late in their production run the Standards were switched to B8, probably in '71 judging from the lack of serial numbered examples (the author owns one). We believe that Paiste stopped making cymbals for Ludwig around '71 or '72 after Ludwig cancelled thier contract without notice. The Ludwig Standards last appearance comes in the 1975 Ludwig catalog in limited size options, these are most assuredly leftover stock. We have examples of pre serial NS12 Ludwig Standards that were restamped with post '71 ink stamping as Stambuls and sold off after the deal with Ludwig collapsed!<br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 66: / Line 66: @@
 </gallery>
-===1966 Formula 602 Joe Morello Set:===
+===1966, Formula 602 Joe Morello Set:===
 In Late 1965 or early '66, Joe Morello was approached by Bill Ludwig to endorse Paiste. Since Joe played and endorsed Ludwig Drums, he was the obvious choice for a signature cymbal set baring his name.</br>
 Paiste catalog: "In personal collaboration with Joe Morello, this beautiful melodically coordinated set was created". A custom set of Formula 602 cymbals made to Joe's specification (the 1st. artist model!) comprising of 14" sound edge hi hats, 17", 18" and 20" sizes.<br>
@@ Line 77: / Line 77: @@
 </gallery>
-===1967 Ludwig & co. visits Paiste:===
+===1967, Ludwig & co. visits Paiste:===
 We are not sure what was discussed at this meeting, it could be the introduction of the Stanople, Giant beats and or the Seven sound set. They could have also planned the upcoming "Paiste day at pro drum" and subsequent tour of the U.S.
 <gallery>
@@ Line 89: / Line 89: @@
 </gallery>
-===1967 the Ludwig Stanople:===
+===1967, The Ludwig Stanople:===
 The Stanople was a low-priced cymbal ideal for the beginner or student drummer that was eventually (or perhaps always) carried by Ludwig as a cheaper alternative to the Ludwig Standard (Stambul). It is known from a Robert Paiste interview that he states the Stanople was a rebranded NS12 Dixie sold to Ludwig for North American distribution.<br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 113: / Line 113: @@
 </gallery>
-===1967 Ludwig carries 602 concert cymbals:===
+===1967, Ludwig carries 602 concert cymbals:===
 <gallery>
 File:1967 paiste ludwig 602 concert catalog1.jpg
@@ Line 121: / Line 121: @@
-===1968 Paiste day at pro drum:===
+===1968, Paiste day at pro drum:===
 "<i>Bob Yeager and Chuck Molinari of the pro drum shop in Hollywood held a European style drummers meeting and the red velvet club in Hollywood, CA. The meeting was attended by several hundred including some of the west coast greats of the percussion world. Robert, Thomas and Pierre discussed cymbals in detail and exchanged many ideas with the drummers of the jazz, rock, recording and TV/motion picture industry.<br>
 In each city visited, the Paiste group spent every evening with drummers in theaters and clubs where they work. Pierre Favré, who was one of Europe's finest. Jazz drummers was a big hit with his many new American drummer friends. The tour proved to be very worthwhile for everyone concerned. Robert and Toomas along with Pierre left the states with a renewed insight into the specific cymball needs of American drummers and percussionists.</i>"<br>
@@ Line 132: / Line 132: @@
 </gallery>
-'''1968 Paiste tour of the U.S:'''
+'''1968, Paiste tour of the U.S:'''
 It is believed the tour kicked off with the above meeting in Hollywood and then moved across the country: "<i>In an effort to learn first-hand the needs and demands of today's American drummers at percussionists, Robert and Thomas Paiste along with their cymbal expert, Pierre Favré, completed a coast to coast tour of ten Major US cities. The tour started in Chicago at the NAMM trade show, where leading dealers from the US and Canada met for five days.</i>"<br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 145: / Line 145: @@
 </gallery>
-===The END, 1972?:===
+===1972? The END:===
-To understand the ending, we need to go back to February 9th. 1964 (the Beatles and the Ed Sullivan show): This seminal moment forever changed the music industry in the U.S, overnight, thousands and thousands of kids wanted to play the drums and begged thier parents for a Ludwig drumset! This massive demand meant Ludwig's factory was working multiple shifts producing drumsts, along with these sets, many were sold with Paiste cymbals.
+To understand the ending, we need to go back to February 9th. 1964 (the Beatles and the Ed Sullivan show): This seminal moment forever changed the music industry in the U.S, overnight, thousands and thousands of kids wanted to play the drums and begged thier parents for a Ludwig drumset! This massive demand meant Ludwig's factory was working multiple shifts producing drumsets, along with these sets, many were sold with Paiste cymbals.
 It is speculated that young, inexperienced (with poor technique), hard hitting drummers started breaking a lot of these cymbals, especially the 602's which were designed as a jazz cymbal, to make matters worse, they were made thinner for the American market, a recipe for disaster!<br>