Wiki cymbal cleaning supplemental - Revision history

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Type85 at 02:57, 24 October 2022

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 I have been using and cleaning Paiste cymbals since 1980. Since day one, I have strived to find the perfect cleaner that won't remove the clear coat or labels from the cymbal but will clean off fingerprints and oxidation.<br>
 From my experience of owning both B8 and B20 cymbals, I have found that B8 cymbals tend to oxidize/tarnish very quickly (it's assumed this is from the high copper to tin ratio) if they are not coated or if the clear coat has been worn off, this can happen in a matter of hours (see pictures below).<br>
-I speculate that when Paiste first produced their B8 cymbals in the mid 1960s, they realized they would have to coat them in order to keep them from immediately tarnishing and oxidizing. There was no way they could sell new cymbals with the change in color and with dark fingerprints on them. I believe this is when they started applying a clear coat on their new B8 cymbals and soon after, applied it to all thier other series.<br>
+I speculate that when Paiste first produced their B8 cymbals in the mid 1960s, they realized they would have to coat them in order to keep them from immediately tarnishing and oxidizing. There was no way they could sell new cymbals with the change in color and with dark fingerprints on them. I believe this is when they started applying a clear coat on their new B8 cymbals and soon after, applied it to all their other series.<br>
 The salt and sweat, from your fingers tends to be mildly corrosive to the alloy, especially B8, this tends to work its way through the clear coat and start to eat away or oxidize the copper in the alloy (in severe cases, if left in that condition of years). When the tarnish is removed (usually by a mild acid in the cleaner), the oxidized material will be broken down and removed as well. You see the same effect but on a much larger scale when rust has been removed from steel and the pitting is revealed. After removing the tarnish (for example, with Flitz tarnish spray) what you have left is a smooth matte finish, not shiny, but rather dull looking (see picture below).<br>
 When polish is applied, you can bring back the shine of the cymbal, but it will never regain the original texture/finish. Some of the alloy was broken down and removed and you are now polishing a new surface, the cymbal will have more of a shiny, brilliant" polished finish (see pictures to the lower right and below) after cleaning.<br>
@@ Line 136: / Line 136: @@
 I have found a very light diluted (with water) coating of Barkeeper's soft cleanser will bring out the rest of the Blue magic cleaner (paper towel will turn black). Wash with soap & water and dry ASAP, then coat cymbal if it doesn't have a clear coat. I've used this process on almost of my cymbals.<br>
-'''Contains: Oleic Acid, Aluminium Oxide (abrasive), Ammonium Hydroxide, Silicone.'''
+'''Contains: Oleic Acid, Aluminum Oxide (abrasive), Ammonium Hydroxide, Silicone.'''
 <gallery>

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:41, 2 January 2024
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	*Note: I exchange the terms "tarnish", "corrosion" and "oxidation" throughout this article, my intention is they have the same meaning.		*Note: I exchange the terms "tarnish", "corrosion" and "oxidation" throughout this article, my intention is they have the same meaning.
		+
		+	[https://youtu.be/0zC4U-sDZZg?si=GYyTqWKTepcwldjW '''Maintaining and cleaning your Paiste cymbals (part 1)''']
		+
		+	[https://youtu.be/6n4oIhn-m8o?si=U2ZF7fQZ3QugGgWl '''Maintaining and cleaning your Paiste cymbals (part 2)''']

	===Experience attained over decades of cleaning cymbals:===		===Experience attained over decades of cleaning cymbals:===

@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 File:Georgy boy 20 stambul 65 2.jpg|This cymbal has had the oxidation chemically removed, what is left is a dull "matte" finish
 </gallery>
-* Cleaning tip: Always, '''Always''' rub/wipe the cleaner along the lathing grooves (in a curved motion) when cleaning a cymbal, never "across" them! I have have seen countless cleaning videos where the user rubs the cleaner in a back and forth pattern across the lathing or in small circles like when waxing a car! Doing this will wear off the clear coat on the top of the lathing groves and leave swirl marks all over the cymbal (depending on how abrasive the cleaner is). It is also recommended you use the same technique when applying any type of coating/protector.<br>
+* Cleaning tip: Always, '''Always''' rub/wipe the cleaner along the lathing grooves (in a curved motion) when cleaning a cymbal, never "across" them! I have have seen countless cleaning videos where the user rubs the cleaner in a back and forth pattern across the lathing, in small circles or even worse, uses an orbital polisher like when waxing a car! Doing this will wear off the clear coat on the top of the lathing groves and leave swirl marks all over the cymbal (depending on how abrasive the cleaner is), it will also wear down the top of the lathing grooves changing the sound of the cymbal. It is also recommended you use the same technique when applying any type of coating/protector.<br>
-*Note: Abrasives will tend to remove ink logos and clear coat and "polish" the finish. Acids will break down the dark stains of tarnish/oxidation, this reduces the amount of rubbing needed and reduces the  likelihood of removing the ink logos and clear coat.<br>
+*Note: Abrasives will tend to remove ink logos and clear coat and "polish" the finish. Acids will break down the dark stains of tarnish/oxidation, this reduces the amount of rubbing needed and reduces the likelihood of removing the ink logos and clear coat.<br>
 * Different alloys and rate of oxidation: I  have found B8 cymbals oxidise the quickest by far, they are the most reactive owing to the large amount of copper, B20 cymbals tarnish much slower and when they do, they attain a yellow hue, NS12 or nickel silver cymbals take a long time to tarnish because of the large amount of nickel and relative small amount of copper.<br>
 * Cleaners: B20 cymbals tend to need a lot more scrubbing (or a more abrasive cleaner) to get them to shine because of the harder alloy, B8 is relatively soft and NS12 is the softest requiring the least amount of effort to clean and build up a shine.<br>
@@ Line 62: / Line 62: @@
 ===To clean or not to clean, that is the question!===
 ----
-For decades and decades, there has always been the controversy on whether or not you should clean your cymbals or let them oxidize tarnish to build up a “patina”.<br>
+For several decades, there has been the controversy on whether or not you should clean your cymbals or let them oxidize tarnish to build up a “patina”.<br>
 Many say that this builds “character” in the cymbal, the basic truth is, dirt and corrosion tarnish will dull the cymbal reduce the high frequencies and sustain. How much of an effect this has on the overall sound depends on many factors, size and weight of the cymbal is a big one; a splash will be affected to a  much greater degree than a 24" heavy ride, even so, it's very hard to quantify, but careful A/B tests before and after cleaning does show a difference.<br>
 My take on this whole situation is when a new cymbal is originally designed/developed, the designer doesn't take it and bury it in his backyard for several months trying to get it to oxidize, tarnish and corrode, then dig it up and then say "that's the sound I was looking for"!<br>
 A new cymbal sound is developed when the cymbal is clean, not dirty and tarnished. Therefore, my thinking is; I want my vintage cymbal to resemble as closely as possible the cymbal that left the factory when it was made. I can't account for wear and tear and metal fatigue, but what I can do is make the cymbal as clean as it was when it left the factory.<br>
-Letting cymbal tarnish and build up a patina is great for jazz drummers if you're looking for a dark, dull, trashy, dirty sound, I am not of that school, so I try to get my cymbals to resemble as closely as possible when they were created! The last point is the visual aspect: because of the hammering techniques and use of a clear coat, Paiste cymbals have a distinct look and shine compared to any other brand.<br><br>
+Letting cymbal tarnish and build up a patina is great for jazz drummers if you're looking for a dark, dull, trashy, dirty sound, I am not of that school, so I try to get my cymbals to sound and look as closely as possible to when they were new! The last point is the visual aspect: because of the hammering techniques and use of a clear coat; Paiste cymbals have a distinct look and shine compared to any other brand, they are absolutely beautiful! You can tell if a drummer is playing Paistes while watching vintage videos just by the way they reflect the light let alone how they sound.<br><br>
 ===Reviews:===
@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 "This one goes to eleven"!<br>
-Flitz tarnish remover spray will breakdown the worst green tarnish/oxidation in seconds (see video below). The drawback is it will leave the alloy "bare/exposed" and ready to oxidize/tarnish immediately, the cymbal must be washed with soap & water afterward to remove the remnants and then dried ASAP. It must then be coated ASAP before it starts to change color!<br>
+Flitz tarnish remover spray will breakdown the worst green tarnish/oxidation in seconds (see video below). The drawback is it will leave the alloy "bare/exposed" and ready to oxidize/tarnish immediately (B8 cymbals are much more susceptible to oxidising than B20 cymbals are). The cymbal must be washed with soap & water afterward to remove the remnants and then dried quickly (I use a hair dryer after towel drying). It must then be coated ASAP before it starts to change color!<br>
 Wear cloves! I found it irritated my hands, I also found pouring it on a paper towel and wiping it on is much more effective than spraying. Also, the mist created by the spray is very irritating to the eyes<br>
 ('''do not get in your eyes!''').  Do not leave on for more than about a minute or the cymbal will start to change color and eventually turn black if left to dry (ask me how I know this!).<br>

@@ Line 125: / Line 125: @@
 ----
 === Blue magic:===
-Effectiveness: 6<br>
+Effectiveness: 7<br>
 Abrasiveness: 4<br>
-Smelly (contains Ammonia) and messy but easy on ink labels, the cleaner will take them off if rubbed long and hard enough, it is gentle on the clear coat, if used lightly, it will actually polish the clear coat (see example below).
+Smelly (contains Ammonia) and messy, contains a VERY fine abrasive but easy on ink labels, the cleaner will take them off if rubbed long and hard enough. It is gentle on the clear coat, if used lightly, it will actually polish the clear coat (see example below).
-Best practice is to rub off cleaner in multiple stages using clean paper towels, this process will actually help polish the finish of the cymbal. Washing with soap and water will not remove all of the remnants (slight dark tinge  to the finish will remain). <br>
+Best practice is to rub off cleaner in multiple stages using clean paper towels, this process will actually help polish the finish of the cymbal. It must be cleaned afterwards, washing with soap and water will not remove all of the remnants (slight dark tinge to the finish will remain). <br>
-I have found a very light diluted (with water) coating of Barkeeper's soft cleanser will bring out the rest of the Blue magic cleaner (paper towel will turn black). Wash with soap & water and dry ASAP, then coat cymbal if it doesn't have a clear coat. I've used this process on most of my cymbals that were fairly to moderately dirty.<br>
+I have found a very light diluted (with water) coating of Barkeeper's soft cleanser will bring out the rest of the Blue magic cleaner (paper towel will turn black). Wash with soap & water and dry ASAP, then coat cymbal if it doesn't have a clear coat. I've used this process on almost of my cymbals.<br>
 '''Contains: Oleic Acid, Aluminium Oxide (abrasive), Ammonium Hydroxide, Silicone.'''
@@ Line 158: / Line 158: @@
 ===Paiste cymbal cleaner===
 Effectiveness: 7<br>
-Abrasiveness: 6<br>
+Abrasiveness: 5<br>
 The standard all other cleaners are measured against! Can be used gently on cymbals with a clear coat, eventually labels and clear coat will wear off from repeated uses. FYI: Cleaner does contain a mild acid and abrasive.
@@ Line 171: / Line 171: @@
 ===Mr. Muscle/Stahl fix===
 Effectiveness: 7<br>
-Abrasiveness: 6<br>
+Abrasiveness: 5<br>
 Paiste cymbal cleaner in the original bottle (see explanation below)!<br>
@@ Line 246: / Line 246: @@
 ----
 ===Lemon pledge===
-Effectiveness: 6<br>
+Effectiveness: 4<br>
-Not as effective as Carnauba wax, smells nice, reasonably effective at protecting the cymbals, leaves a decent shine, very little haziness.
+Not as effective as Carnauba wax, smells nice, reasonably effective at protecting the cymbals, much more effective on B20 than B8 cymbals, leaves a decent shine, very little haziness.
 '''Contains: iso paraffin (petroleum based wax), dimethicone (silicon-based polymer)'''
@@ Line 259: / Line 259: @@
 ----
 ===Pure (no cleaner) Carnauba wax===
-Effectiveness: 7<br>
+Effectiveness: 6<br>
-Creates a decent protective layer if the clear coat is gone, requires lots of rubbing to get it to shine, finish is still hazy, does keep the cymbal from oxidizing fairly well.
+Creates a decent protective layer if the clear coat is gone, requires lots of rubbing to get it to shine, finish is still hazy, much more effective on B20 than B8 cymbals, does keep the cymbal from oxidizing fairly well.
 '''Contains: Carnauba wax'''
@@ Line 282: / Line 282: @@
 ----
 ===Klasse all in one===
-Effectiveness: 7<br>
+Effectiveness: 5<br>
 See review above in the cleaner section.
@@ Line 294: / Line 294: @@
 ----
 === Klasse high gloss sealant glaze===
-Effectiveness: 8<br>
+Effectiveness: 6<br>
-Works best on cymbals without a clear coat, acrylic coating/finish is slightly hazy compared to the bare alloy, good at keeping oxidation away but there is still a slight color change after a few days. Must apply a lot of it, work it into the cymbal, wipe off excess quickly then buff till dry. Do not let it dry with excess amount!
+Works best on cymbals without a clear coat, acrylic coating/finish is slightly hazy compared to the bare alloy, good at keeping oxidation away but there is still a color change after a few days, it seems to stabi;ize after a few weeks, much more effective on B20 than B8 cymbals.<br>
 '''Contains: acrylic based coating'''
@@ Line 308: / Line 309: @@
 Effectiveness: 11+<br>
-I believe this is what Paiste ues at the factory; either oil based or water based clear lacquer. I tested it on a "dummy cymbal", it goes on a little thick, but is rock solid in protecting the cymbal, it has not changed color/tarnished one bit in the last month! The next step is to "cut it" 50/50 with lacquer thinner so I can apply a thinner coat. I'll do a before and after video to see how much the cymbals' sound changes from the coating.
+I believe this is what Paiste uses at the factory; either oil based or water based clear lacquer. I tested it on a "dummy cymbal", it goes on a little thick, but is rock solid in protecting the cymbal, it has not changed color/tarnished one bit in the last month! <br>
 '''Contains: Oil based clear lacquer'''

@@ Line 63: / Line 63: @@
 ----
 For decades and decades, there has always been the controversy on whether or not you should clean your cymbals or let them oxidize tarnish to build up a “patina”.<br>
-Many say that this builds “character” in the cymbal, the basic truth is, dirt and corrosion tarnish will dull the cymbal reduce the high frequencies and sustain. How much of an effect this has on the overall sound is very hard to quantify, but careful A/B tests before and after cleaning does show some difference.<br>
+Many say that this builds “character” in the cymbal, the basic truth is, dirt and corrosion tarnish will dull the cymbal reduce the high frequencies and sustain. How much of an effect this has on the overall sound depends on many factors, size and weight of the cymbal is a big one; a splash will be affected to a  much greater degree than a 24" heavy ride, even so, it's very hard to quantify, but careful A/B tests before and after cleaning does show a difference.<br>
-My take on this whole situation is when a new cymbal is originally designed/developed, the designer doesn't take it and bury it in this backyard for three months trying to get it to oxidise, tarnish and corrode and then say "that's the sound I’m looking for"!<br>
+My take on this whole situation is when a new cymbal is originally designed/developed, the designer doesn't take it and bury it in his backyard for several months trying to get it to oxidize, tarnish and corrode, then dig it up and then say "that's the sound I was looking for"!<br>
 A new cymbal sound is developed when the cymbal is clean, not dirty and tarnished. Therefore, my thinking is; I want my vintage cymbal to resemble as closely as possible the cymbal that left the factory when it was made. I can't account for wear and tear and metal fatigue, but what I can do is make the cymbal as clean as it was when it left the factory.<br>
 Letting cymbal tarnish and build up a patina is great for jazz drummers if you're looking for a dark, dull, trashy, dirty sound, I am not of that school, so I try to get my cymbals to resemble as closely as possible when they were created! The last point is the visual aspect: because of the hammering techniques and use of a clear coat, Paiste cymbals have a distinct look and shine compared to any other brand.<br><br>

@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 * Cleaning tip: Always, '''Always''' rub/wipe the cleaner along the lathing grooves (in a curved motion) when cleaning a cymbal, never "across" them! I have have seen countless cleaning videos where the user rubs the cleaner in a back and forth pattern across the lathing or in small circles like when waxing a car! Doing this will wear off the clear coat on the top of the lathing groves and leave swirl marks all over the cymbal (depending on how abrasive the cleaner is). It is also recommended you use the same technique when applying any type of coating/protector.<br>
-*Note: Abrasives will tend to remove ink logos and clear coat and "polish" the finish, acids will break down the dark stains of tarnish/oxidation, this reduces the amount of rubbing needed and reduces the  likelihood of removing the ink logos and clear coat.<br>
+*Note: Abrasives will tend to remove ink logos and clear coat and "polish" the finish. Acids will break down the dark stains of tarnish/oxidation, this reduces the amount of rubbing needed and reduces the  likelihood of removing the ink logos and clear coat.<br>
-* Different alloys and rate of oxidation: I  have found B8 cymbals oxidise the quickest by far, they are the most reactive owing to the large amount of cooper, B20 cymbals tarnish much slower and when they do, they attain a yellow hue, NS12 or nickel silver cymbals take a long time to tarnish, because of the large amount of nickel and relative small amount of copper.<br>
+* Different alloys and rate of oxidation: I  have found B8 cymbals oxidise the quickest by far, they are the most reactive owing to the large amount of copper, B20 cymbals tarnish much slower and when they do, they attain a yellow hue, NS12 or nickel silver cymbals take a long time to tarnish because of the large amount of nickel and relative small amount of copper.<br>
-* Cleaners: B20 cymbals tend to need a lot more scrubbing (or a more abrasive cleaner) to get them to shine because of the harder alloy, B8 is relatively soft and NS12 is the softest requiring the least amount of effort to clean and build up a shine.<br><br>
+* Cleaners: B20 cymbals tend to need a lot more scrubbing (or a more abrasive cleaner) to get them to shine because of the harder alloy, B8 is relatively soft and NS12 is the softest requiring the least amount of effort to clean and build up a shine.<br>
 ===To clean or not to clean, that is the question!===
@@ Line 98: / Line 99: @@
 Wear cloves! I found it irritated my hands, I also found pouring it on a paper towel and wiping it on is much more effective than spraying. Also, the mist created by the spray is very irritating to the eyes<br>
 ('''do not get in your eyes!''').  Do not leave on for more than about a minute or the cymbal will start to change color and eventually turn black if left to dry (ask me how I know this!).<br>
-For extremely tarnished corroded cymbal, I used a worn slightly abrasive scotchbrite pad to "work" the worst spots of corrosion.<br>
+For extremely tarnished corroded cymbal, I used a worn slightly abrasive scotch brite pad to "work" the worst spots of corrosion.<br>
 [https://youtu.be/yR0Ss4cKd5I Flitz spray in action, I'm wearing gloves, a mask and glasses]
@@ Line 106: / Line 107: @@
 File:Flitz spray.jpg
 File:PXL 20221021 034527518.jpg
 </gallery>
 ----

@@ Line 137: / Line 137: @@
 File:PXL 20220918 014340112.jpg|clear coat is rough
 File:PXL 20221015 023812971.jpg|after Bluemagic, clear coat has been polished!
 </gallery>
 ----

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 == My journey to find the perfect cymbal cleaner ==
 <div style="float:right">__TOC__</div>
-[[File:Cleaners.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
+[[File:Cleaners.jpg|thumb|right|350px|The gang's all here]]
 [[File:PXL 20220816 233421428.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
-[[File:PXL 20220911 224505455.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
+[[File:PXL 20220911 224505455.jpg|thumb|right|350px|assembly line]]
 [[File:Stambul 65 18 th cr sdie by side.jpg|thumb|right|350px|before and after]]
 [[File:Georgy boy trio.jpg|thumb|right|350px|The three stages of cleaning a very tarnished cymbal]]
@@ Line 21: / Line 21: @@
 [[File:PXL 20220923 003445414.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
 [[File:PXL 20221009 004537068.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
-[[File:PXL 20220923 003257354.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
+[[File:PXL 20220923 003257354.jpg|thumb|right|350px|Big Deezy's house of B8 & B20 and sometimes NS12!]]
 [[File:PXL 20221009 004746437.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]
 [[File:PXL 20220911 224404927.jpg|thumb|right|350px|]]