Difference between revisions of "Paiste Serial Numbers"

Latest revision as of 05:54, 20 November 2024

Paiste serial numbers were first applied during 1972.
Prior to this there was no exact means of determining the age of a Paiste cymbal, there were more general indicators that would get you in the ball park age wise: the years of production for the series or model, lack of or presence of ink stamping, different version of the logo stamp, alloy used or even the size of the bell or mounting hole.
These cymbals are referred to as "Pre-Serial" cymbals.

Important note: cymbals have been found without serial numbers stamped on them from production eras where we might expect them.

This guide does not apply to serial numbers on many prototypes, nor the German made Paistes which seem to have been numbered from 1xxxxx up (see German serial number section below).

Sometimes serial numbers will be found from the year prior to the release year. For example, one Signature series cymbal was found with a 1988 stamp, and a Colorsound 900 cymbal was found with a 2016 stamp. One explanation for this would be that in order to get these cymbals to locations far from Switzerland, manufacturing had to begin in the previous year, to allow for a long shipping time.

? - 1971 preserial and transition models

There is a Wiki section that helps determine the age of Formula 602's based on the stamp/emboss format: Preserial Era stamps

General rules to follow in determining the age of your Paistes:

? - early 60's?: Stambuls had the size and weight printed in red ink higher than 3:00 on the cymbal, closer to 2:30, (see example below), we don't have any examples of early 602's being stamped this way.

? - early 60's?: Red "size" in inches followed by the "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock (for 602's). Some German Paistes have the size stamped in centimeters.

1963 - 1981: Red "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock on standard weight models: Paper Thin, Thin, Thin Crash, Medium, Medium Ride, Heavy, Concert (excluding 2002's, giant beats and Sound Creations).

1971: "Paiste" name ink stamp now gets applied above the bell (probably with introduction of 2002 line which comes in late spring) on all Paiste lines and Ludwig cymbals (Standard and Stanople, Ludwig cymbals never get a series name stamp).

1972: Giant beats get the "Paiste" name ink stamp on the "black label" cymbals, they are never given a Paiste outline logo ink stamp on the bottom of the cymbal.

1972: Serial numbers (on Swiss cymbals), series name ink stamp and Paiste outline logo ink stamp on bottom introduced, "True" Black Label era stamping begins.

Mid 60's - 1973: Red ink diameter/size stamp under the bell until 1973 (or very late '72) and then it changes to Black for the reminder of Black Label phase (1973-1981) (vintage 602 SE Hats always had the black diameter stamp under the bell and the SE logo stamps on top were always black.).

1975: (or very late in 1974), the "Type/weight" stamp ink changes to Black for specialty type 602s only: seven sound set cymbals, Chinas, Flat Rides (Joe Morello cymbals now get the black signature stamp instead of the red stamps).

Preserial 602 hi-hats: only the "type" is stamped
1950's NS12 Stambul with size & weight stamp @ ~2:00
Preserial 602 hi-hats, size is in red ink under the bell
German Stambul with size in centimeters
Preserial Stambul 65 "Thin crash" no name just weight printed in red
Preserial 602 23" thin
23" 602 thin bottom
1960's 602 production showing weight stamps
Stamping in action
Rubber ink stamps for all sizes and lines

Transition models:

There was a brief period (1971?) where preserial 602's and 2002's didn't have the series name stamped below the name "Paiste"

Transition 23" thin 602, no series name printed
23" thin 602 close up: no series name printed
Transition 602 20" "heavy" is labeled in red ink #200492 (early '72 production)
Size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
602 23" medium serial #222910 ('72 production)
Bottom view: size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
Transition 602 w/solid stamp
Transition 602 23" heavy
23" heavy w/solid stamp
23" heavy w/solid stamp and 1974 serial number!

Preserial 2002's:

Very early production 2002's (1971) didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste, some didn't have the "Paiste" outline stamp on the underside of the cymbal either.
The very 1st. cymbals off the production line had a "border" around the the 2002 stamp/emboss, we call this the "box stamp". We understand the box stamp emboss is the rarest of the rare when it comes to preserial 2002's. Our research has found that this emboss was difficult to apply and was quickly dropped in favor of the classic "open stamp" 2002 emboss we see throughout the 1970's into 1980 and early '81.

Very early 2002 emboss "box stamp"
16" crash "box stamp"
16" crash bottom without "outline stamp"
Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
preserial ink stamp no "2002" name printed
different angle, same cymbal
Full labels but no serial#, probably a preserial leftover that was stamped at a later date
Preserial marching pair
18" preserial medium
18" preserial medium bottom with "outline stamp"

1972 - 1981: the Black label era

Starting in 1972 there were six digit serial numbers stamped on each cymbal coming out of the Swiss plant:

The specific year is identified by the 'first' digit in the serial number. Some believe a leading 1 means 1971 (it does not), we haven't found one yet having checked thousands.

All 6 digit serials with a leading 1 check out as 1981 for Swiss made cymbals. The German versions from the 70's do start with a 1, but that isn't the year (see explanation below).

The 1970's serial numbers did not include the series name (602, 2002, Sound Creation, etc.) above the serial number.

Paiste Nottwil put serial numbers on the lower lines in 1972 and 1973 (Stambul, Stambul 65, Dixie and possibly the Super) up to about serial# 414xxx - probably after or in Jan/Feb 74. They then choose only to put serial numbers on the professional lines (Formula 602, 2002, Giant beat and later Sound Creation) for the rest of the Black Label era.

Most black label Swiss 404's and 505's didn't get serial #'s until mid '81 when they transitioned to colored logos.

As a general rule for any Paiste line made in Switzerland: 6 digit numbers no series name above it, '72-early '81 production, first digit indicating year.
2xxxxx 1972
3xxxxx 1973
4xxxxx 1974
5xxxxx 1975
6xxxxx 1976
7xxxxx 1977
8xxxxx 1978
9xxxxx 1979
0xxxxx 1980
1xxxxx early 1981

Very early 1972 Formula 602 serial #
1972 2002
1973 2002
1974 Formula 602
1975 2002
1976 Formula 602
1978 2002
1979 Sound Creation
1980 2002
Very early 1980 2002 production

German serial numbers

German-made 2002's started receiving serial numbers from very late 1973 onwards (a few earlier 2002 examples exist).
Some collectors are sure they have 1971 production 2002 cymbals with serial numbers starting with 1xxxxx, they are in fact German made 2002's with a different serial numbering format.
The German numbering system differs from the Swiss system in that that cymbals were numbered consecutively; the first digit does not equal the year!
If you are looking at a German Black Label 2002 from the 1970s, the second digit is a good general indicator of the year (this also applies to all post '74 lower line German produced cymbals except the 101).

1972-74 the German factory not only made 2002s for the German market, they also helped the Swiss factory with exports of 2002s due to high demand.

The German plant traditionally made all of the "lower line cymbals" up to the present, it is understood that the Stambul, Dixie and the Super got serial numbers from '75 and later.

German Stambul 65's never got serials because they were discontinued by late '73 or early '74 (before serial numbers were applied).

German 404's and 505's got serials from the start of production in late '77.

Right before Paiste went to the printed color logos (1981) it looks like production increased substantially and they started going through serials at a faster rate so the "2nd digit = year" rule no longer applies!

Judging from the serial numbers, the German plant stopped producing 2002's in 1986 when the 3000 was introduced.

Here's a breakdown (dates are approximate):
late 1973-1979 serial numbers : 13xxxx to 19xxxx

17xxxx is from around '77 or '78, a lower third digit (171xxx-174xxx) likely from '77 while a higher third digit (175xxx-179xxx) puts you around '78, serial# 196181 is from about '79.

1980 serial numbers: 20xxxx - 21xxxx

1981-1986 serial numbers: 22xxxx-3xxxxx

All 2oo2s with serial# 22xxxx and later are red labeled.
Confirmed specific dates from the German factory: serial# 2612xx produced in November '83, serial# 2984xx produced in October '84, serial# 3244xx produced in August '85.

1986-1990 serial numbers: 33xxxx-6xxxxx

example: #333994 '86, #418074 '87 or '88.

80's "red label" German 2002
'73 German 2002
German preserial 2002
German 2002 emboss/stamp
German 2002 serial# 173368 = mid 1977 production
German 505 serial# 203998 = 1980 production (black label restamped as green label)
German 404 serial# 251468 = approx. 1982 production
1978 NS12 German Super
red label 20" ride
1985 2002 serial #

1981 - 1986 colored labels begin

Starting in 1981, "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, often along with the series name. (NOTE: This change occurred sometime during the year, some examples of the previous style exist with 1981 serial numbers.)

Like before, the first number indicates year - the following would be an example of 1982:

PAISTE 2002 234567

6 digits with plain PAISTE stamp:

1xxxxx remainder of 1981 (some early Color printed Logo '81 cymbals just have PAISTE above the number and not series name)
2xxxxx 1982
3xxxxx 1983
4xxxxx 1984
5xxxxx 1985
6xxxxx early 1986

During this time (mid/late '81) Paiste changed label colors on some of their series. Formula 602 - Blue, 2002 - Red, 505 - Green, among others.
The RUDE and Colorsound 5 names were NOT stamped after PAISTE.

Formula 602 was shortened to simply "602" 1982 serial
Sound Creation was located under PAISTE, due to space limitations 1982 serial
1981 RUDE
1984 Colorsound 5
1982 Formula 602
1984 505
1984 Sound Creation
1985 404
1985 2002
1985 2002 (Special Order Reflector finish)

1986 - 1990

During 1986 (probably when they launched all the new lines - 3000, 2000, 1000, etc.), "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, without series name.

Like before, the first number indicates year - the following would be an example of 1989:

PAISTE 901234

1986 2000 Colorsound
1986 3000
1986 1000 RUDE
1987 2002
1987 Formula 602
1987 Sound Creation
1988 3000
1988 3000 Reflector
1989 Formula 602
1989 Signature
1990 Signature
1990 Sound Formula

1990 - 1995

During 1990 the company name was changed to the 'high/low' style" "pAisTe".

Therefore "pAisTe 345678" would be from 1993.

1990 3000 with new high/low style
1991 2000 Sound Reflections
1992 Signature
1993 Formula 602
1993 Signature
1994 3000
1994 Signature
1995 2002
1995 Signature
1995 2000 Sound Reflections

1995 - 2011

Sometime in 1995 Paiste started using eight digit serial numbers. In these cases, the first two digits represent the year of production.

Therefore "96789012" would be from 1996.

1996 Sound Formula
1997 Sound Formula
1998 2002
1999 Dimensions
2000 Signature
2003 Signature
2004 2002
2005 Signature
2008 Signature
2009 Dark Energy
2010 Giant Beat
2011 Formula 602

Starting in about 2005, "MADE IN SWITZERLAND" was added to the bottom logo of the 2002 cymbals.

2011 - present

In the second half of 2011, Paiste started using a laser etched serial number on the cymbal's bottom side.

Numbers are not stamped on the top side from this point on. The first two numbers are still the year produced.

2011 Signature
2012 Twenty Custom Serial
2013 2002
2013 Signature
2015 Signature
2016 Masters
2017 Masters
2018 Giant Beat
2019 2002
2020 2002
2021 2002

Information from: Sean Walton, Todd Little, Steve Black, Dan Garza, Nils Lillig, Splash Baker.

Special thanks to Manuel Persiani for sharing his serial number pictures.

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Difference between revisions of "Paiste Serial Numbers"

Latest revision as of 05:54, 20 November 2024

Contents

? - 1971 preserial and transition models

1972 - 1981: the Black label era

German serial numbers

1981 - 1986 colored labels begin

1986 - 1990

1990 - 1995

1995 - 2011

2011 - present

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@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 Prior to this there was no exact means of determining the age of a Paiste cymbal, there were more general indicators that would get you in the ball park age wise: the years of production for the series or model, lack of or presence of ink stamping, different version of the logo stamp, alloy used or even the size of the bell or mounting hole.<br>
 These cymbals are referred to as "Pre-Serial" cymbals.<br>
-*It should also be noted that it is not uncommon for serial numbers to be difficult to read due to hammering and lathing. In these cases, the era of the cymbal can usually be identified, but the exact year may not be determined.<br>
-*Also of important note; cymbals have been found without serial numbers stamped on them from production eras where we might expect them.<br>
+*Important note: cymbals have been found '''without''' serial numbers stamped on them from production eras where we might expect them.<br>
 *This guide does not apply to serial numbers on many prototypes, nor the German made Paistes which seem to have been numbered from 1xxxxx up [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/index.php?title=Paiste_Serial_Numbers&action=submit#.2A.2AGerman_serial_numbers.2A.2A <b>(see German serial number section below).]</b> <br>
+*Sometimes serial numbers will be found from the year prior to the release year. For example, one Signature series cymbal was found with a 1988 stamp, and a Colorsound 900 cymbal was found with a 2016 stamp. One explanation for this would be that in order to get these cymbals to locations far from Switzerland, manufacturing had to begin in the previous year, to allow for a long shipping time.
 == ? - 1971  preserial and transition models ==
-(Keep in mind trying to date any Paiste by printed labels is not exact: the transition from red ink to black ink for the weights could have varied depending on series and location: German or Swiss plant).<br>
+There is a Wiki section that helps determine the age of Formula 602's based on the stamp/emboss format: [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_Formula_602#Preserial_Era Preserial Era stamps]<br>
-There is a Wiki section that helps determine the age of Formula 602's based on the stamp format: [https://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_Formula_602#Preserial_Era Preserial Era stamps]<br>
+General rules to follow in determining the age of your Paistes:<br>
-General rules to follow in determining the age of your 602's, 2002's, Dixies, Stambuls, Stambul 65's, etc.:<br>
+* ? - early 60's?: Stambuls had the size and weight printed in red ink higher than 3:00 on the cymbal, closer to 2:30, (see example below), we don't have any examples of early 602's being stamped this way.
-* ? - 1959: <font color="red">Red</font> "size" in inches followed by the "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock. Some German Paistes have the size stamped in centimeters.<br>
+* ? - early 60's?: <font color="red">Red</font> "size" in inches followed by the "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock (for 602's). Some German Paistes have the size stamped in centimeters.<br>
-*1959 - 1981: <font color="red">Red</font> "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock on standard weight models: Paper Thin, Thin, Thin Crash, Medium, Medium Ride, Heavy, Concert (excluding 2002's, giant beats and Sound Creations). <br>
+*1963 - 1981: <font color="red">Red</font> "type/weight" ink stamp at 3 o'clock on standard weight models: Paper Thin, Thin, Thin Crash, Medium, Medium Ride, Heavy, Concert (excluding 2002's, giant beats and Sound Creations). <br>
-*1971: "Paiste" name ink stamp now gets applied above the bell (probably with introduction of 2002 line which comes in late spring) in all Paiste lines and Ludwig cymbals: Standard and Stanople (Ludwig cymbals never get a series name stamp).<br>
+*1971: "Paiste" name ink stamp now gets applied above the bell (probably with introduction of 2002 line which comes in late spring) on all Paiste lines and Ludwig cymbals (Standard and Stanople, Ludwig cymbals never get a series name stamp).<br>
 *1972: Giant beats get the "Paiste" name ink stamp on the "black label" cymbals, they are never given a Paiste outline logo ink stamp on the bottom of the cymbal.
@@ Line 27: / Line 28: @@
 *1972: Serial numbers (on Swiss cymbals), series name ink stamp and Paiste outline logo ink stamp on bottom introduced, "True" Black Label era stamping begins.<br>
-*Mid 60's - 1973: <font color="red">Red ink</font> diameter/size stamp under the bell until 1973 (or very late '72) and then it changes to '''Black''' for the reminder of Black Label phase (1973-1981).<br>
+*Mid 60's - 1973: <font color="red">Red ink</font> diameter/size stamp under the bell until 1973 (or very late '72) and then it changes to '''Black''' for the reminder of Black Label phase (1973-1981) (vintage 602 SE Hats always had the black diameter stamp under the bell and the SE logo stamps on top were always black.).<br>
-*1975: (or very late in 1974), the "Type/weight" stamp ink changes to '''Black''' for specialty type 602s only: seven sound set cymbals, Chinas, Flat Rides (Joe Morello cymbals now get the black signature stamp instead of the red stamps).<br>
+*1975: (or very late in 1974), the "Type/weight" stamp ink changes to '''Black''' for specialty type 602s only: seven sound set cymbals, Chinas, Flat Rides (Joe Morello cymbals now get the black signature stamp instead of the red stamps).<br><br>
 <gallery>
-File:602 preserial 14 HH.JPG|Preserial 602 hi-hats: only the "type/weight" is stamped
+File:602 preserial 14 HH.JPG|Preserial 602 hi-hats: only the "type" is stamped
-File:1950s stambul.jpg|1950's NS12 Stambul with size & weight stamp @ 3:00
+File:1950s stambul.jpg|1950's NS12 Stambul with size & weight stamp @ ~2:00
 File:602 preserial 14 HH bttm 1.JPG|Preserial 602 hi-hats, size is in red ink under the bell
 File:Stambul 65 metric.jpg|German Stambul with size in centimeters
 File:18 thin cr 65.jpg|Preserial Stambul 65 "Thin crash" no name just weight printed in red
 File:602 23 thin sisme.jpg| Preserial 602 23" thin
-File:602 23 thin bottom sisme.jpg| 23" thin bottom
+File:602 23 thin bottom sisme.jpg| 23" 602 thin bottom
 File:60s 602 labels.jpg|1960's 602 production showing weight stamps
 File:Factory stamping.jpg|Stamping in action
@@ Line 44: / Line 45: @@
 </gallery>
-'''Transition 602 models''':
+'''Transition models''':
-*Some very early (1972) 602's had serial numbers but didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste (vintage 602 SE Hats always had the black diameter stamp under the bell and the SE logo stamps on top were always black.)<br><br>
+*There was a brief period (1971?) where preserial 602's and 2002's didn't have the series name stamped below the name "Paiste" <br><br>
 <gallery>
@@ Line 52: / Line 53: @@
 File:602 20 heavy prelogo sisme.jpg|Transition 602 20" "heavy" is labeled in red ink #200492 (early '72 production)
 File:602 20 heavy prelogo sisme bottom.jpg|Size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
-File:602 23 meduim transition sisme 222910.jpg|602 23" medium serial #222910 (mid '72 production)
+File:602 23 meduim transition sisme 222910.jpg|602 23" medium serial #222910 ('72 production)
 File:602 23 meduim transition sisme bottom 222910.jpg|Bottom view: size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
-File:Stambul 24 thin 2388.jpg|B8 Stambul with Paiste name but no series name
+File:S-l1600.jpg|Transition 602 w/solid stamp
-File:Stambul 16 med.jpg|B8 Stambul with "Paiste" and series name, weight is printed in black, probably post '72 production
+File:PXL 20221228 020839223.jpg|Transition 602 23" heavy
-File:Sisme 602 b.jpg|'73 production 602 sound edge showing black ink for series type
+File:602 transition ink.jpg|23" heavy w/solid stamp
-File:Sisme 602 a.jpg|'73 production 602 sound edge showing black ink for size
+File:23 Heavy 2.jpg|23" heavy w/solid stamp and 1974 serial number!
 </gallery>
 '''Preserial 2002's''':
-*Very early production 2002's (1971) didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste, some also had a "border" around the the 2002 stamp/emboss.<br><br>
+*Very early production 2002's (1971) didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste, some didn't have the "Paiste" outline stamp on the underside of the cymbal either.
+*The very 1st. cymbals off the production line had a "border" around the the 2002 stamp/emboss, we call this the "box stamp". We understand the box stamp emboss is the rarest of the rare when it comes to preserial 2002's. Our research has found that this emboss was difficult to apply and was quickly dropped in favor of the classic "open stamp" 2002 emboss we see throughout the 1970's into 1980 and early '81.<br><br>
 <gallery>
-File:2002 early logo.jpg|Very early 2002 emboss with "border"
+File:2002 box stamp.jpg|Very early 2002 emboss "box stamp"
-File:2002 early logo '71.jpg|Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
+File:PXL 20221125 035539088.jpg|16" crash "box stamp"
-File:2002 14 hh pre serial.jpg|Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
+File:PXL 20221125 035433296.jpg|16" crash bottom without "outline stamp"
-File:Preserial 2002 20.jpg|Full labels but no serial#, probably a preserial leftover that was stamped at a later date and sold
+File:Preserial 2002 3.jpg|Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
+File:Preserial 2002 2.jpg|preserial ink stamp no "2002" name printed
+File:Preserial 2002 1.jpg|different angle, same cymbal
+File:Preserial 2002 20.jpg|Full labels but no serial#, probably a preserial leftover that was stamped at a later date
 File:Preserial 2002 marching.jpg|Preserial marching pair
+File:312247684 10159404792355892 3675100819484314278 n.jpg|18" preserial medium
+File:312441475 10159404792550892 4631165018851820600 n.jpg|18" preserial medium bottom with "outline stamp"
 </gallery>
 == 1972 - 1981: the Black label era==
-Starting in 1972 there were six digit serial numbers stamped on each cymbal:<br>
+Starting in 1972 there were six digit serial numbers stamped on each cymbal coming out of the Swiss plant:<br>
-*The specific year is identified by the 'first' digit in the serial number. Some believe a leading 1 means 1971, but we haven't found one yet having checked thousands.<br>
+*The specific year is identified by the 'first' digit in the serial number. Some believe a leading 1 means 1971 (it does not), we haven't found one yet having checked thousands.<br>
 *All 6 digit serials with a leading 1 check out as 1981 for Swiss made cymbals. The German versions from the 70's do start with a 1, but that isn't the year (see explanation below). <br>
-*The 1970's serial numbers did not include additional lettering (series name) above the serial number itself.<br>
+*The 1970's serial numbers did not include the series name (602, 2002,  Sound Creation, etc.) above the serial number.<br>
-*Research shows that Paiste Nottwil put serial numbers on the lower lines in 1972 and 1973 (at least some of the time) and then stopped this practice in very early 1974, choosing only to put serial numbers on the professional lines (Formula 602, 2002, Giant beat and later Sound Creation) for the rest of the Black Label era.<br>
+*Paiste Nottwil put serial numbers on the lower lines in 1972 and 1973 (Stambul, Stambul 65, Dixie and possibly the Super) up to about serial# 414xxx - probably after or in Jan/Feb 74. They then choose only to put serial numbers on the professional lines (Formula 602, 2002, Giant beat and later Sound Creation) for the rest of the Black Label era.<br>
-*All series (except [[Paiste 101]]) were using black labels during this era.<br>
+*Most black label Swiss 404's and 505's didn't get serial #'s until mid '81 when they transitioned to colored logos.<br>
-As a general rule for all Paiste lines made in Switzerland:<br>
+As a general rule for any Paiste line made in Switzerland: 6 digit numbers no series name above it, '72-early '81 production, first digit indicating year.<br>
-*6 digits no lettering: 70's production, first digit indicating year:<br>
 xxxxx 1972<br>
 xxxxx 1973<br>
@@ Line 97: / Line 103: @@
 <gallery>
 File:602 serial.jpg| Very early 1972 Formula 602 serial #
+File:1972 2002 Hi Hat Serial.jpg|1972 2002
 File:1973 2002.jpg|1973 2002
 File:1974 Formula 602 Serial.jpg|1974 Formula 602
@@ Line 108: / Line 115: @@
 == **German serial numbers** ==
-German-made 2002's started receiving serial numbers from about 1973 onwards (see '73 serial number pic below).<br>
+German-made 2002's started receiving serial numbers from very late 1973 onwards (a few earlier 2002 examples exist).<br>
 Some collectors are sure they have 1971 production 2002 cymbals with serial numbers starting with 1xxxxx, they are in fact German made 2002's with a different serial numbering format.<br>
 <b>The German numbering system differs from the Swiss system in that that cymbals were numbered consecutively; the first digit does not equal the year!</b><br>
-If you are looking at a German Black Label 2002 from the 1970s, the second digit is a good <b>general</b> indicator of the year (this also applies to all lower line German produced cymbals).<br>
+If you are looking at a German Black Label 2002 from the 1970s, the second digit is a good <b>general indicator</b> of the year (this also applies to all post '74 lower line German produced cymbals except the 101).<br>
+*1972-74 the German factory not only made 2002s for the German market, they also helped the Swiss factory with exports of 2002s due to high demand.
+*The German plant traditionally made all of the "lower line cymbals" up to the present, it is understood that the Stambul, Dixie and the Super got serial numbers from '75 and later.
+*German Stambul 65's never got serials because they were discontinued by late '73 or early '74 (before serial numbers were applied).
+*German 404's and 505's got serials from the start of production in late '77.
+*Right before Paiste went to the printed color logos (1981) it looks like production increased substantially and they started going through serials at a faster rate so the "2nd digit = year" rule no longer applies!<br>
+*Judging from the serial numbers, the German plant stopped producing 2002's in 1986 when the 3000 was introduced.
 Here's a breakdown (dates are approximate):<br>
-  ~1972 (or early '73) no serial numbers<br>
+late 1973-1979 serial numbers : 13xxxx to 19xxxx<br>
+*17xxxx is from around '77 or '78, a lower third digit (171xxx-174xxx) likely from '77 while a higher third digit (175xxx-179xxx) puts you around '78, serial# 196181 is from about '79.<br>
--1979 serial numbers : 10xxxx to 20xxxx<br>
-*Example: 130279 is from about '73, 17xxxx is from around '77 or '78, a lower third digit (171xxx-174xxx) likely from '77 while a higher third digit (175xxx-179xxx) puts you around '78, serial# 196181 is from about '79.<br>
 serial numbers: 20xxxx - 21xxxx<br>
@@ Line 124: / Line 142: @@
 *Confirmed specific dates from the German factory: serial# 2612xx produced in November '83, serial# 2984xx produced in October '84, serial# 3244xx produced in August '85.<br>
--1990 serial numbers: 33xxxx-4xxxxx<br>
+-1990 serial numbers: 33xxxx-6xxxxx<br>
-*example: #333994 mid '86, #418074 late 80’s.<br>
+*example: #333994 '86, #418074 '87 or '88.<br>
-*Right before Paiste went to the printed color logos it looks like production increased and they started going through serials at a faster rate.<br>
-*1972-74 the German factory not only made 2002s for the German market they also helped the Swiss factory with exports of 2002s due to high demand.<br>
-*The German plant traditionally made all of the "lower line cymbals" up to the present, it is understood that the Stambul, Stambul 65, Dixie and the Super never got serial numbers, it wasn't until late '77 that we see 505's (a re-stamped Stambul!) with serial numbers.<br>
-Below is an example of German made 2002’s with consecutive serial numbers, common for a matched pairs most likely made in early/mid 1977 (also included are some German serial # oddities):<br>
 <gallery>
-File:2002 german 73 serial.jpg|serial# 130279: ~'73 German 2002
+File:2002 german logo.jpg|80's "red label" German 2002
-File:242501439 580785103074775 4576886780728784338 n.jpg| German 2002 15" marching cymbals with consecutive serials
+File:2002 german 73 serial.jpg| '73 German 2002
-File:242388532 580785073074778 5442261292214066663 n.jpg| German 2002 stamp
+File:PXL 20220807 222033331.jpg|German preserial 2002
+File:242388532 580785073074778 5442261292214066663 n.jpg| German 2002 emboss/stamp
 File:242392223 580785059741446 6922965537155192320 n.jpg|German 2002 serial# 173368 = mid 1977 production
-File:242432879 580785069741445 2277499923503160471 n.jpg|German 2002 serial# 173367 = mid 1977 production
-File:German 505 serial.jpg|German 505 black label serial# 194708 = approx. 1979 production
 File:German 505 203998.jpg|German 505 serial# 203998 = 1980 production (black label restamped as green label)
 File:German 404 serial.jpg| German 404 serial# 251468 = approx. 1982 production
-File:2002 german logo.jpg|80's "red label" German 2002
+File:14 super.jpg|1978 NS12 German Super
+File:German 2002 ride.jpg| red label 20" ride
+File:85 german 2002 20 ride.jpg| 1985 2002 serial #
 </gallery>
-== 1981 - 1986 ==
+== 1981 - 1986 colored labels begin ==
 Starting in 1981, "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, often along with the series name. (NOTE: This change occurred sometime during the year, some examples of the previous style exist with 1981 serial numbers.)<br>
@@ Line 173: / Line 187: @@
 </gallery>
-==  1986 - 1989/90 ==
+==  1986 - 1990 ==
 During 1986 (probably when they launched all the new lines - [[Paiste 3000|3000]], [[Paiste 2000|2000]], [[Paiste 1000|1000]], etc.), "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, '''without''' series name. <br>
@@ Line 183: / Line 197: @@
 File:1986_2000_Colorsound.jpg|1986 2000 Colorsound
 File:1986 3000 Serial.jpg|1986 3000
+File:1000 RUDE 20 Power Ride 4.jpg|1986 1000 RUDE
 File:1987_2002_Serial.jpg|1987 2002
 File:1987_Formula_602_Serial.jpg|1987 Formula 602
@@ Line 189: / Line 204: @@
 File:1988_3000_Reflector_Serial.jpg|1988 3000 Reflector
 File:1989_Formula_602_Serial.jpg|1989 Formula 602
+File:SigSer1989.jpg|1989 Signature
+File:SigSerNum90.jpg|1990 Signature
 File:1990_Sound_Formula_Serial.jpg|1990 Sound Formula
 </gallery>
-==  1989/90 - 1995 ==
+==  1990 - 1995 ==
-During late '89 or ealy '90 the company name was changed to the 'high/low' style" "pAisTe".
+During 1990 the company name was changed to the 'high/low' style" "pAisTe".
 *Therefore "pAisTe 345678" would be from 1993.<br><br>
 <gallery>
-File:89 rudes.jpg|1989 Rude with new high/low style
+File:1990 3000 Serial.jpg|1990 3000 with new high/low style
-File:1990 3000 Serial.jpg|1990 3000
 File:1991_2000_Sound_Reflections_Serial.jpg|1991 2000 Sound Reflections
+File:1992 Signature Serial.jpg|1992 Signature
 File:1993 Formula 602 Serial.jpg|1993 Formula 602
 File:1993 Signature Serial.jpg|1993 Signature
+File:3000 1994 Serial.jpg|1994 3000
+File:Signature 1994 Serial.jpg|1994 Signature
 File:1995_2002_Serial.jpg|1995 2002
+File:Sig20HBR_Serial.jpg|1995 Signature
 File:1995_2000 Sound Reflections_Serial.jpg|1995 2000 Sound Reflections
 </gallery>
@@ Line 213: / Line 233: @@
 <gallery>
-File:1995_Signature_Serial.jpg|1995 Signature
 File:1996_Sound_Formula_Serial.jpg|1996 Sound Formula
-File:1999_Signature_Serial.jpg|1999 Signature
+File:1997 Sound Formula serial.jpg|1997 Sound Formula
+File:1998 2002 Serial.jpg|1998 2002
 File:1999_Dimensions_Serial.jpg|1999 Dimensions
 File:2000_Signature_Serial.jpg|2000 Signature
+File:2003_Signature_Serial.jpg|2003 Signature
 File:2004_2002_Serial.jpg|2004 2002
+File:SigSerNum2005.jpg|2005 Signature
 File:2008_Signature_Serial.jpg|2008 Signature
 File:2009_Dark_Energy_Serial.jpg|2009 Dark Energy
@@ Line 234: / Line 256: @@
 <gallery>
-File:2012_Giant Beat_Serial.jpg|2012 Giant Beat
+File:2011 Signature serial.jpg|2011 Signature
+File:2012 Twenty Custom Serial.jpg|2012 Twenty Custom Serial
+File:2013 2002 Serial.jpg|2013 2002
+File:2013 Signature Serial.jpg|2013 Signature
 File:2015_Signature_Serial.jpg|2015 Signature
 File:2016_Masters_Serial.jpg|2016 Masters
-File:2017_Giant Beat_Serial.jpg|2017 Giant Beat
 File:2017_Masters_Serial.jpg|2017 Masters
 File:2018_Giant Beat_Serial.jpg|2018 Giant Beat
-File:2018 Signature Reflector Serial.jpg|2018 Signature Reflector
+File:2019 2002 Serial.jpg|2019 2002
+File:2020 2002 Serial.jpg|2020 2002
+File:2021 2002 Serial.jpg|2021 2002
 </gallery>
+----------------------------------------------------
+Information from: Sean Walton, Todd Little, Steve Black, Dan Garza, Nils Lillig, Splash Baker.<br>
-== Early 70's 602 engraving dates ==
+*Special thanks to Manuel Persiani for sharing his serial number pictures.
-We know from two different sources at Paiste (one was Erik Paiste) that these may represent cymbals which were returned to have some rework done on them.<br>
-They most likely date the modification and not the actual cymbal manufacture date. Currently we have records for two dozen of these 602s:<br>
-*1-72: 3 (one with R - 1 - 72 but in the same style)<br>
-*2-72: 2<br>
-*3-72: 5 (one pair of 15" SE hats with outline stamp and the older style patent list)<br>
-*4-72: 6<br>
-*5-72: none so far<br>
-*6-72: 3<br>
-*2-73: 3 (pair of 1972 serial number hats plus a preserial 20" Ride)**<br>
-*3-73: 1 (14" SE hat bottom preserial) This preserial tells us that the time lag before a cymbal is returned for rework might be a year or two.<br>
-*And last but not least there is one Giant Beat which has 7 or 9 - 72<br>
-(**)The above pair of hi-hats is a rework from Paiste: The engraving is "2-73" and the serial numbers are 226602 and 226603, the hats were 12 3/4" diameter and this is what Paiste customer services had to say: “<i>this hi-hat indeed is from 1972, In former times hi-hat pairs were matched and the serial number was embossed afterwards. The engraving inside the bell “2-73” means, that something was changed or repaired on customer’s request in February 1973 by our craftsmen. The  12 ¾” size is indeed remarkable. It is possible, that the customer damaged the edge, and our craftsmen trimmed the edge at the factory in February 1973 with the result being a smaller sized hi-hat</i>.”<br><br>
-<gallery>
-File:F602-3-72-15SE-engraved.jpg|3-72 engraving date
-File:602SE-bot 6-72.jpg|6-72 engraving date
-File:602SE-bot3-73.jpg|3-73 engraving date "KPAC"
-File:13-2-73-hats-engr.jpg|(**)02-73 engraving date
-File:13-2-73-hats-bot.jpg|(**)2-73 cut down to 12 3/4"
-</gallery>
-==Variations of the patent stamp on Sound Edge Hi-Hats, Flat rides==
-Through the early years of sound edge hi hats, the number of patents by country increased for zero to six:<br>
-* "Pat. Pending" only from 1967 until at least July 1969 (after that the ink changes to show the US patent.)<br>
-* Patent numbers from 4 countries on stamp (Swiss, Great Britain, Italy, USA) ~1970 (possibly as early as July 1969 but no sooner due to the inclusion of US patent number)<br>
-* Patent numbers from 6 countries on stamp (adds Germany and USSR) ~1972 (It is possible it could date as far back as 4/1970 as that's when the German patent number was granted.)<br>
-* Removal of "other countries pending" by 1976 at the latest.<br>
-*There is the possibility that the earliest 602 SE Hats were stamped with a simple Sound Edge Top (and Bottom) in a plain font in red ink at 3:00 O'Clock (like all other 602s) before they came up with the black wavy SE Logo stamp.
-*We have an old advert with this alternate stamping, we were told by Ed Clift that this plain text stamping was just done for the ad and that all production SE Hats had the wavy black logo, but it wouldn't be surprising if some were sold with the plain red ink.<br><br>
-<gallery>
-File:602SE-inside-bell pat pend.jpg|"Pat. Pending" only, '67 to pre July '69
-File:602 Patent stamp 4 country.jpg|Approx 1970 preserial 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 4 countries & "other countries pending"
-File:Sisme 602 6 patents.jpg|'73 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 6 countries & "other countries pending"
-File:79 602 SE patent list.jpg|'79 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 6 countries and lack of "other countries pending"
-File:Flat ride pat pend.jpg|Early flat ride "pat pend" pre Dec. '70
-File:Flat ride other pat pend.jpg|"Other countries pending" approx. post 1971
-File:602-Flat-Ride patent.jpg|"Other countries pending" removed, last iteration stamp
-</gallery>
-===Patent lists and Pat Pending years:===
-The timeline on the Paiste site says 1967/68 for flat rides and sound edge hats. The details on the U.S. patent & trade mark office site says:<br>
-*Paiste Flat Ride: United States Patent 3,546,994 Filed Jan 22, 1969 and Issue Date: December 15, 1970
-*Paiste Sound Edge Hats: United States Patent 3,453,923 Filed Aug 3, 1967 and Issue Date: July 8, 1969
-*Given Paiste themselves say "invented 1967/1968", they were likely patented in Switzerland and England earlier than USA.<br><br>
-<gallery>
-File:Sound edge eng patent.jpg|Oct. 1967 English patent application
-File:Sound edge eng patent 2.jpg|English patent application
-File:Sound edge eng patent 3.jpg|English patent application
-File:Sound edge eng patent 4.jpg|English patent application
-File:US flat ride patent 1970.jpg|US flat ride patent 1970
-</gallery>
-== Early high "ripple count" sound edge bottoms==
-Another identifying factor of early preserial 602 sound edge bottoms is they had a higher "ripple count" than later versions, it seems Paiste had not decided on a standard number when sound edges were first introduced.<br>
-*There are even numbers of ripples. They started out at 56 or 54 in the "Pat Pending" era (mid 1967 - mid 1969), reduced to 52 once production settled down, reduced to around 36-42 by 1972 (serial number black label era), and 32 by the blue label era and into the present day reissues (needs to be verified).<br>
-*There are cymbals with other ripple numbers (46 x 1, 38 x 1) which might represent the handmade factor, or be intermediate forms in time. We don't have enough examples to get that precise.<br>
-===Sound Edge ripple reductions (scallops) tabulation as at 10-Oct-21===
-14" preserial x 3<br>
-15" pat pending; 15" black<br>
-14" preserial x 7<br>
-15" with 51 reputed (probably miscount by 1)<br>
-15" preserial; 14" preserial<br>
-14" preserial<br>
-14" black label; 14" preserial, 1972 13"<br>
-14" black label<br>
-14" black label x 3<br>
-14" blue label; 14" present day<br>
-<gallery>
-File:Preserial 602 14 SE hats hi ripples.jpg
-File:Pre serial 602 SE hi rippple.jpg
-</gallery>
-----------------------------------------------------
-Information from: Todd Little, Steve Black, Dan Garza, Nils Lillig, Splash Baker.<br>
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