Paiste Serial Numbers
Contents
- 1 ? - 1971 preserial and transition models
- 2 1972 - 1981: the Black label era
- 3 **German serial numbers**
- 4 1981 - 1986
- 5 1986 - 1989/90
- 6 1989/90 - 1995
- 7 1995 - 2011
- 8 2011 - present
- 9 Early 70's 602 engraving dates
- 10 Variations of the patent stamp on Sound Edge Hi-Hats, Flat rides
- 11 Early high "ripple count" sound edge bottoms
Paiste serial numbers were first applied during 1972. Prior to this there was no accurate means of determining the age of a Paiste other than to identify the years of production for the series or model, when known.
These cymbals are referred to as "Pre-Serial" cymbals.
It should also be noted that it is not uncommon for serial numbers to be difficult to read due to hammering and lathing. In these cases, the era of the cymbal can usually be identified, but the exact year may not be determined.
Also of important note, cymbals have been found without serial numbers stamped on them from production eras where we might expect them.
This guide does not apply to serial numbers on many prototypes, nor the German made Paistes which seem to have been numbered from 1xxxxx up (see German serial number section below).
? - 1971 preserial and transition models
(Keep in mind trying to date any Paiste by printed labels is not exact: the transition from red ink to black ink for the weights could have varied depending on series and location: German or Swiss plant).
There is a Wiki section that helps determine the age of Formula 602's based on the stamp format: Preserial Era stamps
General rules to follow in determining the age of your 602's, 2002's, Dixies, Stambuls, Stambul 65's, etc.:
- 1959 - 1981: Red "type/weight" Stamp ink at 3 o'clock on Standard weight models: Paper Thin, Thin, Thin Crash, Medium, Medium Ride, Heavy, Concert (excluding 2002's, giant beats and Sound Creations).
- 1971: Paiste logo stamp starts getting applied above the bell (probably with introduction of 2002 line which comes in late spring) in all Paiste lines and Ludwig cymbals (Standard and Stanople) Paiste Super, Ludwig Standard and Stanople never get a series name stamp (Giant beats get the stamp in '72 on the "black label" cymbals).
- 1972: Serial numbers (on Swiss cymbals), series name logo stamps and outline logo stamp on bottom introduced. "True" Black Label era stamping begins.
- 1973: Red ink diameter/size stamp under the bell until 1973 (or very late in-year 1972) and then it changes to Black for the reminder of Black Label phase (1973-1981).
- 1975: (or very late in 1974), the "Type/weight" stamp ink changes to Black for specialty type 602s only: seven sound set cymbals, Chinas, Flat Rides (Joe Morello cymbals now get the black signature stamp instead of the red stamps).
Preserial 602 hi-hats only the "type/weight" is stamped
Preserial 602 hi-hats size is in red ink
Closeup
Preserial Stambul 65 "Thin crash" no name just weight printed in red
1950's NS12 Stambul with original "offset" weight stamp
Preserial 602 23" thin
23" thin bottom
1960's 602 production showing weight stamps
Stamping in action
Rubber ink stamps for all sizes and lines
Transition 602 models:
- Some very early (1972) 602's had serial numbers but didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste (vintage 602 SE Hats always had the black diameter stamp under the bell and the SE logo stamps on top were always black.)
Transition 23" thin 602, no series name printed
23" thin 602 close up: no series name printed
Transition 602 20" "heavy" is labeled in red ink #200492 (early '72 production)
Size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
602 23" medium serial #222910 (mid '72 production)
Bottom view: size is stamped in red, no outlined "Paiste" logo
B8 Stambul with Paiste name but no series name
B8 Stambul with "Paiste" and series name, weight is printed in black, probably post '72 production
'73 production 602 sound edge showing black ink for series type
'73 production 602 sound edge showing black ink for size
Preserial 2002's:
- Very early production 2002's (1971) didn't have the series name stamped below the name Paiste, some also had a "border" around the the 2002 stamp/emboss.
Very early 2002 stamp with "border"
Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
- 2002 14 hh pre serial.jpg
Early ink stamp no "2002" name printed
Full labels but no serial#, probably a preserial leftover that was stamped at a later date and sold
Preserial marching pair
1972 - 1981: the Black label era
Starting some time during 1972 there were six digit numbers stamped on each cymbal:
- The specific year is identified by the 'first' digit in the serial number. Some believe a leading 1 means 1971, but we haven't found one yet having checked thousands.
- All 6 digit serials with a leading 1 check out as 1981 for Swiss made cymbals. The German made ones from the 70's do start with a 1, but that isn't the year (see explanation below).
- The original 1970's style involved no additional lettering with the serial number such as series name.
- Research is starting to show that Paiste Nottwil put serial numbers on the lower lines in 1972 and 1973 (at least some of the time) and then stopped this practice in very early 1974, choosing only to put serial numbers on the professional lines (F602, 2002 and later Sound Creation) for the rest of the Black Label era.
- All series (except Paiste 101) were using black labels during this era.
As a general rule for all Paiste lines made in Switzerland:
- 6 digits no lettering: 70's production, first digit indicating year:
2xxxxx 1972
3xxxxx 1973
4xxxxx 1974
5xxxxx 1975
6xxxxx 1976
7xxxxx 1977
8xxxxx 1978
9xxxxx 1979
0xxxxx 1980
1xxxxx early 1981
Very early 1972 Formula 602 serial #
1973 2002
1974 Formula 602
1975 2002
1976 Formula 602
1978 2002
1979 Sound Creation
1980 2002
Very early 1980 2002 production
**German serial numbers**
German-made 2002's started receiving serial numbers from about 1973 onwards (see '73 serial number pic below).
Some collectors are sure they have 1971 production 2002 cymbals with serial numbers starting with 1xxxxx, they are in fact German made 2002's with a different serial numbering format.
The German numbering system differs from the Swiss system in that that cymbals were numbered consecutively; the first digit does not equal the year!
If you are looking at a German Black Label 2002 from the 1970s, the second digit is a good general indicator of the year (this also applies to all lower line German produced cymbals).
Here's a breakdown (dates are approximate):
1971 ~1972 (or early '73) no serial numbers
1973-1979 serial numbers : 10xxxx to 20xxxx
- Example: 130279 is from about '73, 17xxxx is from around '77 or '78, a lower third digit (171xxx-174xxx) likely from '77 while a higher third digit (175xxx-179xxx) puts you around '78, serial# 196181 is from about '79.
1980 serial numbers: 20xxxx - 21xxxx
1981-1986 serial numbers: 22xxxx-3xxxxx
- All 2oo2s with serial# 22xxxx and later are red labeled.
- Confirmed specific dates from the German factory: serial# 2612xx produced in November '83, serial# 2984xx produced in October '84, serial# 3244xx produced in August '85.
1986-1990 serial numbers: 33xxxx-4xxxxx
- example: #333994 mid '86, #418074 late 80’s.
- Right before Paiste went to the printed color logos it looks like production increased and they started going through serials at a faster rate.
- 1972-74 the German factory not only made 2002s for the German market they also helped the Swiss factory with exports of 2002s due to high demand.
- The German plant is known for making all of the "lower line cymbals" through Paiste's history up to the present, it is understood that Sound Creations were never made in Germany and we have seen only one example of a German 602.
Below is an example of German made 2002’s with consecutive serial numbers, common for a matched pairs most likely made in early/mid 1977 (also included are some German serial # oddities):
serial# 130279: ~'73 German 2002
German 2002 15" marching cymbals with consecutive serials
German 2002 stamp
German 2002 serial# 173368 = mid 1977 production
German 2002 serial# 173367 = mid 1977 production
German 505 black label serial# 194708 = approx. 1979 production
German 505 serial# 203998 = 1980 production (black label restamped as green label)
German 404 serial# 251468 = approx. 1982 production
80's "red label" German 2002
1981 - 1986
Starting in 1981, "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, often along with the series name. (NOTE: This change occurred sometime during the year, some examples of the previous style exist with 1981 serial numbers.)
- Like before, the first number indicates year - the following would be an example of 1982:
- 6 digits with plain PAISTE stamp:
1xxxxx remainder of 1981 (some early Color printed Logo '81 cymbals just have PAISTE above the number and not series name)
2xxxxx 1982
3xxxxx 1983
4xxxxx 1984
5xxxxx 1985
6xxxxx early 1986
- During this time (mid/late '81) Paiste changed label colors on some of their series. Formula 602 - Blue, 2002 - Red, 505 - Green, among others.
- The RUDE and Colorsound 5 names were NOT stamped after PAISTE.
Formula 602 was shortened to simply "602" 1982 serial
Sound Creation was located under PAISTE, due to space limitations 1982 serial
1981 RUDE
1984 Colorsound 5
1982 Formula 602
1984 505
1984 Sound Creation
1984 Colorsound 5
1985 2002
1985 2002 (Special Order Reflector finish)
1986 - 1989/90
During 1986 (probably when they launched all the new lines - 3000, 2000, 1000, etc.), "PAISTE" was stamped above the serial number, without series name.
- Like before, the first number indicates year - the following would be an example of 1989:
1986 2000 Colorsound
1986 3000
1987 2002
1987 Formula 602
1987 Sound Creation
1988 3000
1988 3000 Reflector
1989 Formula 602
1990 Sound Formula
1989/90 - 1995
During late '89 or ealy '90 the company name was changed to the 'high/low' style" "pAisTe".
- Therefore "pAisTe 345678" would be from 1993.
1989 Rude with new high/low style
1990 3000
1991 2000 Sound Reflections
1993 Formula 602
1993 Signature
1995 2002
1995 2000 Sound Reflections
1995 - 2011
Sometime in 1995 Paiste started using eight digit serial numbers. In these cases, the first two digits represent the year of production.
- Therefore "96789012" would be from 1996.
- 1995 Signature Serial.jpg
1995 Signature
1996 Sound Formula
- 1999 Signature Serial.jpg
1999 Signature
1999 Dimensions
2000 Signature
2004 2002
2008 Signature
2009 Dark Energy
2010 Giant Beat
2011 Formula 602
- Starting in about 2005, "MADE IN SWITZERLAND" was added to the bottom logo of the 2002 cymbals.
2011 - present
In the second half of 2011, Paiste started using a laser etched serial number on the cymbal's bottom side.
- Numbers are not stamped on the top side from this point on. The first two numbers are still the year produced.
- 2012 Giant Beat Serial.jpg
2012 Giant Beat
2015 Signature
2016 Masters
- 2017 Giant Beat Serial.jpg
2017 Giant Beat
2017 Masters
2018 Giant Beat
- 2018 Signature Reflector Serial.jpg
2018 Signature Reflector
Early 70's 602 engraving dates
We know from two different sources at Paiste (one was Erik Paiste) that these may represent cymbals which were returned to have some rework done on them.
They most likely date the modification and not the actual cymbal manufacture date. Currently we have records for two dozen of these 602s:
- 1-72: 3 (one with R - 1 - 72 but in the same style)
- 2-72: 2
- 3-72: 5 (one pair of 15" SE hats with outline stamp and the older style patent list)
- 4-72: 6
- 5-72: none so far
- 6-72: 3
- 2-73: 3 (pair of 1972 serial number hats plus a preserial 20" Ride)**
- 3-73: 1 (14" SE hat bottom preserial) This preserial tells us that the time lag before a cymbal is returned for rework might be a year or two.
- And last but not least there is one Giant Beat which has 7 or 9 - 72
(**)The above pair of hi-hats is a rework from Paiste: The engraving is "2-73" and the serial numbers are 226602 and 226603, the hats were 12 3/4" diameter and this is what Paiste customer services had to say: “this hi-hat indeed is from 1972, In former times hi-hat pairs were matched and the serial number was embossed afterwards. The engraving inside the bell “2-73” means, that something was changed or repaired on customer’s request in February 1973 by our craftsmen. The 12 ¾” size is indeed remarkable. It is possible, that the customer damaged the edge, and our craftsmen trimmed the edge at the factory in February 1973 with the result being a smaller sized hi-hat.”
3-72 engraving date
6-72 engraving date
3-73 engraving date "KPAC"
(**)02-73 engraving date
(**)2-73 cut down to 12 3/4"
Variations of the patent stamp on Sound Edge Hi-Hats, Flat rides
Through the early years of sound edge hi hats, the number of patents by country increased for zero to six:
- "Pat. Pending" only from 1967 until at least July 1969 (after that the ink changes to show the US patent.)
- Patent numbers from 4 countries on stamp (Swiss, Great Britain, Italy, USA) ~1970 (possibly as early as July 1969 but no sooner due to the inclusion of US patent number)
- Patent numbers from 6 countries on stamp (adds Germany and USSR) ~1972 (It is possible it could date as far back as 4/1970 as that's when the German patent number was granted.)
- Removal of "other countries pending" by 1976 at the latest.
- There is the possibility that the earliest 602 SE Hats were stamped with a simple Sound Edge Top (and Bottom) in a plain font in red ink at 3:00 O'Clock (like all other 602s) before they came up with the black wavy SE Logo stamp.
- We have an old advert with this alternate stamping, we were told by Ed Clift that this plain text stamping was just done for the ad and that all production SE Hats had the wavy black logo, but it wouldn't be surprising if some were sold with the plain red ink.
"Pat. Pending" only, pre 1969
"Pat. Pending" only
Approx 1970 preserial 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 4 countries & "other countries pending"
'73 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 6 countries & "other countries pending"
'79 602 sound edge showing Patent numbers from 6 countries and lack of "other countries pending"
Early flat ride "pat pend"
"Other countries pending"
Patent lists and Pat Pending years:
The timeline on the Paiste site says 1967/68 for flat rides and sound edge hats. The details on the U.S. patent & trade mark office site says:
- Paiste Flat Ride: United States Patent 3,546,994 Filed Jan 22, 1969 and Issue Date: December 15, 1970
- Paiste Sound Edge Hats: United States Patent 3,453,923 Filed Aug 3, 1967 and Issue Date: July 8, 1969
- Given Paiste themselves say "invented 1967/1968", they were likely patented in Switzerland and England earlier than USA.
Oct. 1967 English patent application
English patent application
English patent application
English patent application
US flat ride patent 1970
Early high "ripple count" sound edge bottoms
Another identifying factor of early preserial 602 sound edge bottoms is they had a higher "ripple count" than later versions, it seems Paiste had not decided on a standard number when sound edges were first introduced.
- There are even numbers of ripples. They started out at 56 or 54 in the "Pat Pending" era (mid 1967 - mid 1969), reduced to 52 once production settled down, reduced to around 36-42 by 1972 (serial number black label era), and 32 by the blue label era and into the present day reissues (needs to be verified).
- There are cymbals with other ripple numbers (46 x 1, 38 x 1) which might represent the handmade factor, or be intermediate forms in time. We don't have enough examples to get that precise.
Sound Edge ripple reductions (scallops) tabulation as at 10-Oct-21
56 14" preserial x 3
54 15" pat pending; 15" black
52 14" preserial x 7
51 15" with 51 reputed (probably miscount by 1)
50 15" preserial; 14" preserial
46 14" preserial
42 14" black label; 14" preserial, 1972 13"
38 14" black label
36 14" black label x 3
32 14" blue label; 14" present day
Information from: Todd Little, Steve Black, Dan Garza, Nils Lillig. Splash Baker
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